Damaged JM Air layer/grafting help

[Ctorres]

I picked up this grafted Crimson Queen for half price in the hopes that I could air layer the CQ off the rootstock, train the rootstock as a bonsai, and maybe use the CQ as a landscaping tree. I have lots of questions and I've never tried air layering or grafting.

• Would it be worth trying to remove the damaged trunk area and regraft the cq onto the rootstock then air layer it off or should I just air layer the rootstock below the CQ graft and leave the damaged portion of the cq trunk?
• What would be the best time to start air layering and then trunk chopping in zone 10b? I've read some contradicting things in books.
• Do you think the cq has enough remaining foliage to air layer successfully?
• If I air layer and chop off all the branches/foliage and leave the rootstock bare, would the rootstock have a lower chance of surviving than if I were to try to get it to back bud first somehow? Or would new shoots on the rootstock weaken the grafted CQ?
• Would you chop the rootstock just below the graft or lower to try to get taper and movement in the future?
• Would cut paste or anything else help the tree at this point? The break looks like it happened days before I got it.
• Should just let it recover for a year or two before attempting any work?

What would you do if this was your tree?
All advice is greatly appreciated as I'm still pretty new to this, Thank you!

 

[Jrmcmich]

I have heard air layering lace leaf can be hard but have not tried that myself. At this point add wound sealer to open bark and get tree healthy before anything is what I’d do. Think any work might just kill it. Others might weigh in better

 

[19Mateo83]

I have heard air layering lace leaf can be hard but have not tried that myself. At this point add wound sealer to open bark and get tree healthy before anything is what I’d do. Think any work might just kill it. Others might weigh in better

This is the correct course of action.

I will also add that the dissectum JM are notoriously hard to air layer and are weak on their own roots. If you want a chance of getting two trees out of this, once it is healthy make your cut just BELOW the graft. That will ensure you have some of the root stock that will root and fuel its growth and health as a landscape tree.

 

[Ctorres]

This is the correct course of action.

I will also add that the dissectum JM are notoriously hard to air layer and are weak on their own roots. If you want a chance of getting two trees out of this, once it is healthy make your cut just BELOW the graft. That will ensure you have some of the root stock that will root and fuel its growth and health as a landscape tree.

Yeah, I definitely want to air layer at the rootstock. Would it be risky to attempt to re-graft the dissectum creating a scion from just above the damage onto the rootstock?

 

[19Mateo83]

Yeah, I definitely want to air layer at the rootstock. Would it be risky to attempt to re-graft the dissectum creating a scion from just above the damage onto the rootstock?

Once it has recovered from its trauma air layer at the red lines. You will get two trees this way. No need to graft, the remaining stub “should” put out shoots

 

[Shibui]

Layering, grafting. Seems like a lot of time and trouble to get a Japanese maple stump to develop as bonsai.
Grafting a new Crimson Queen will take a few years to get anywhere near the size you have now.
Layering will take a few months at the optimum time then probably allow a year to get the roots strong enough to work with. Then allow 5-8 years to develop branches , apex, etc for bonsai.
Roots on commercial trees produced for landscape are typically tangled and circling because the stocks have been grown in pots. Some can be sorted out, others are such a mess you'll never get good nebari. It would be worth checking what's under the soil here before making long term plans.

Consider finding a young standard JM seedling for your bonsai. IMHO it will be quicker to start from scratch than to work with the stock of this tree. Starting fresh also means you have control over the roots, trunk bends, taper and branching.

What would be the best time to start air layering and then trunk chopping in zone 10b? I've read some contradicting things in books.

I expect the reason for conflicting info is that layer and chops work at all times of the year. Some people seem to think that because a certain time works, it must therefore be the 'best' time. Often they have not even tried other times for comparison. In some cold climate areas early layers are possibly better than later, just to get roots before everything freezes. Obviously that doesn't affect zone 10 where you should be able to chop and layer almost all year round.
There's plenty of foliage on the grafted top to layer successfully. With all the live parts on one side of the trunk it's likely you'll only get roots on that side of any layer.

Just a warning that the rootstock trunk may not be able to produce buds. Many growers purposely excise any visible nodes from stock so they don't produce suckers that will take over the grafted top. I can't see any visible evidence of buds having been removed but also can't see any nodes that might be able to shoot.

From experience, I can see lots of problems with your plans and relatively few benefits. Unless you are really determined to use this as a project to try grafting and layering techniques I'd look elsewhere for both your landscape tree and your future bonsai.

 

[leatherback]

Second @Shibui

 

[Ctorres]

Layering, grafting. Seems like a lot of time and trouble to get a Japanese maple stump to develop as bonsai.
Grafting a new Crimson Queen will take a few years to get anywhere near the size you have now.
Layering will take a few months at the optimum time then probably allow a year to get the roots strong enough to work with. Then allow 5-8 years to develop branches , apex, etc for bonsai.
Roots on commercial trees produced for landscape are typically tangled and circling because the stocks have been grown in pots. Some can be sorted out, others are such a mess you'll never get good nebari. It would be worth checking what's under the soil here before making long term plans.

Consider finding a young standard JM seedling for your bonsai. IMHO it will be quicker to start from scratch than to work with the stock of this tree. Starting fresh also means you have control over the roots, trunk bends, taper and branching.


I expect the reason for conflicting info is that layer and chops work at all times of the year. Some people seem to think that because a certain time works, it must therefore be the 'best' time. Often they have not even tried other times for comparison. In some cold climate areas early layers are possibly better than later, just to get roots before everything freezes. Obviously that doesn't affect zone 10 where you should be able to chop and layer almost all year round.
There's plenty of foliage on the grafted top to layer successfully. With all the live parts on one side of the trunk it's likely you'll only get roots on that side of any layer.

Just a warning that the rootstock trunk may not be able to produce buds. Many growers purposely excise any visible nodes from stock so they don't produce suckers that will take over the grafted top. I can't see any visible evidence of buds having been removed but also can't see any nodes that might be able to shoot.

From experience, I can see lots of problems with your plans and relatively few benefits. Unless you are really determined to use this as a project to try grafting and layering techniques I'd look elsewhere for both your landscape tree and your future bonsai.

Checking under the soil as in removing from the pot and having a good look, or just digging up some of the soil from the top to peek at the roots? Would it be risky to have a good look at the roots, essentially repotting it this winter/spring in its current state?

What exactly do they do to the rootstock nodes so I can try to do a closer inspection and lookout for that? I did see what looked like some twigs broken off of the rootstock, but no idea when or how that happened. Is there anything I could do to try to encourage the rootstock to bud? Would a nitrogen rich fertilizer help it sprout buds and possibly even help the scion in producing tissue to heal over the wound?

 

[Shibui]

Checking under the soil as in removing from the pot and having a good look, or just digging up some of the soil from the top to peek at the roots? Would it be risky to have a good look at the roots, essentially repotting it this winter/spring in its current state?

Summer is NOT a good time to fully explore deciduous roots but exposing the upper roots, which are the ones we are concerned about for nebari, should be no problem. Normally just scrape some soil away from the base of the tree and surface of the potting soil until you find reasonable roots. That may be enough to see if the main surface roots are at the same level or twisted and tangled.
Otherwise wait until Winter/Spring and do a full repot and bare root to see what you have under there.