Cross-over root advice

[ACooke]

Hey All,

Was hoping for some advice on the roots in the attached photos.

In my naivety, i didn’t really have any concern about the artistically coloured () roots in these photos.

They didn’t concern me hugely in an aesthetic way - meh, certainly not ideal, but you’ve got to start somewhere - and i’d thought they might fuse with time anyway.

Since my blissful unawareness, i’ve been aware’d that ‘strangler roots’ are indeed a thing, and as the name suggests, can potentially kill certain areas of a trunk.

So i was after some advice as to what my options are.

Being a pine, and being that pines move fluid and nutrients (i believe) horizontally as well as vertically, killing segments if the trunk wouldn’t necessarily kill off branching above??? But regardless, that seems like it might be a silly and lazy route to take.

So is it best, in regards to tree health and development if all - or some - of these roots come off?

If there aren’t health issues to leaving them - which it seems is unlikely - will they potentially fuse and become less unsightly with time?

Is there anything else i’m missing or should be considering?

I presume if they are to be removed, it’d be best to do so one at a time, or through periodic pruning and reduction of dependance?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Whether or not you can remove them depends on the rest of the root system: if there's enough to take over, no problem. If these are the main roots, tough luck.
They might fuse a little, but from what I've seen, pine roots can also keep growing without ever fusing because there's a bunch of bark preventing that fusion. It will cause no health issues but over time a couple may die off.
During repotting you might be able to reposition roots number purple and green. But orange will be difficult.

One option you have is to girdle one of the larger roots so that it dies slowly over time, this gives the plant time to invest in the rest of the root system.
Another option is to damage the root over time and let it die naturally, same principle.
Third option is to just cut it off, if the rest of the root system allows it.
Fourth option is to enjoy the peculiarity and turn it into a feature: how many trees in the wild have perfect nebari? And if so very few, why not embrace what we see in nature and display it in a pot?

 

[ACooke]

P

Whether or not you can remove them depends on the rest of the root system: if there's enough to take over, no problem. If these are the main roots, tough luck.
They might fuse a little, but from what I've seen, pine roots can also keep growing without ever fusing because there's a bunch of bark preventing that fusion. It will cause no health issues but over time a couple may die off.
During repotting you might be able to reposition roots number purple and green. But orange will be difficult.

One option you have is to girdle one of the larger roots so that it dies slowly over time, this gives the plant time to invest in the rest of the root system.
Another option is to damage the root over time and let it die naturally, same principle.
Third option is to just cut it off, if the rest of the root system allows it.
Fourth option is to enjoy the peculiarity and turn it into a feature: how many trees in the wild have perfect nebari? And if so very few, why not embrace what we see in nature and display it in a pot?

Perfect. That clears up a lot.

It’ll be going in to the ground for a bit and foliage wise, needs some strengthening so time wise, slowly reducing the reliance on the roots in questions should be very doable.

I’d have had a better look at the root system before throwing it in to the ground but being the tree looked a little weak and it’s the middle of summer here, i didn’t want to do much more than essentially slip-potting it; so i’ll take a better look when the time comes.

My main concern was as to whether it was a pressing issue in regards to health. If so, i’d have slowly started to reduce reliance on those roots pronto. Being that it doesn’t sound like it is, it gives me a lot more time and options.

I personally don’t particularly mind the look of the roots how they are; but whether or not that feeling will remain as time goes, is anyones guess.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply with such depth.

 

[Shibui]

My experience is that pine roots fuse quite quickly if they are held close together. A couple of years in the ground saw roots fuse into solid blocks of wood in a group of JBP I put in the grow beds a few years ago.

Almost all trees have more than enough roots so losing a few does not usually cause any problem. Remaining roots just take over from the missing roots. You do need to check and make sure removing one root doesn't take off more than half the existing root system though. That's pretty rare but can happen.
Older trees (not only pines) can have strong roots tied closely to branches above. Removing one (branch or root) suddenly can lead to the other dying but all trees have the ability to change sap flow so the bit by bit reductions mentioned above can usually overcome any problem.

I'd probably remove the worst roots now as they'll only be a bigger problem later.
Yellow is small and hugs the trunk. No problem to chop it right away.
Blue is small.
Green appears to have plenty of other roots underneath so, even though it is bigger there should be enough roots nearby.
Probably leave orange until repotting time to check further.

Slip potting into the ground in summer is not likely to be much advantage. Pines typically take a couple of years to get going in the ground and you'll really want to check roots next winter/spring so you'll get almost no growth advantage over keeping it in a pot for summer and doing a good root job then planting in the ground in winter.
Might be better to find the problem it has in the pot and address that to get it healthy this growing season. Possible reasons for unhealthy trees in pots includes: insufficient fertiliser; lack of water; too much water; pests or disease; poor potting mix; incorrect pH; tree is very root bound; external conditions (sun, wind, temp, etc).
Some pics of the tree and foliage might give some experienced growers clues as to what could be causing failing health.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

One option you have is to girdle one of the larger roots so that it dies slowly over time, this gives the plant time to invest in the rest of the root system.
Another option is to damage the root over time and let it die naturally, same principle.
Third option is to just cut it off, if the rest of the root system allows it.
Fourth option is to enjoy the peculiarity and turn it into a feature: how many trees in the wild have perfect nebari? And if so very few, why not embrace what we see in nature and display it in a pot?

A final option to be considered, particularly when the roots are too important to remove, is to split the root. If the conditions allow it, you are left with two roots, and they can sometimes be much more flexible/pliable so that you can untangle them and lie them out more appropriately.

 

[ACooke]

My experience is that pine roots fuse quite quickly if they are held close together. A couple of years in the ground saw roots fuse into solid blocks of wood in a group of JBP I put in the grow beds a few years ago.

Almost all trees have more than enough roots so losing a few does not usually cause any problem. Remaining roots just take over from the missing roots. You do need to check and make sure removing one root doesn't take off more than half the existing root system though. That's pretty rare but can happen.
Older trees (not only pines) can have strong roots tied closely to branches above. Removing one (branch or root) suddenly can lead to the other dying but all trees have the ability to change sap flow so the bit by bit reductions mentioned above can usually overcome any problem.

I'd probably remove the worst roots now as they'll only be a bigger problem later.
Yellow is small and hugs the trunk. No problem to chop it right away.
Blue is small.
Green appears to have plenty of other roots underneath so, even though it is bigger there should be enough roots nearby.
Probably leave orange until repotting time to check further.

Slip potting into the ground in summer is not likely to be much advantage. Pines typically take a couple of years to get going in the ground and you'll really want to check roots next winter/spring so you'll get almost no growth advantage over keeping it in a pot for summer and doing a good root job then planting in the ground in winter.
Might be better to find the problem it has in the pot and address that to get it healthy this growing season. Possible reasons for unhealthy trees in pots includes: insufficient fertiliser; lack of water; too much water; pests or disease; poor potting mix; incorrect pH; tree is very root bound; external conditions (sun, wind, temp, etc).
Some pics of the tree and foliage might give some experienced growers clues as to what could be causing failing health.

Thanks Shibui,
Is the sole reason i’d remove them, an aesthetic one then? Is there any problem with just leaving them as is?

I’ve already slip-potted it in to the ground, being unaware that it’d be fairly pointless. It’d probably be fine to pull it back up and address the root situation at a more suitable time this year i’d think as i didn’t really mess with them much at all.

As far as weakness; i only bought it a fortnight ago after. It’s raw nursery stock that seems to have been cut back pretty heavily, i presume to spark back budding on the few branches that remain. There are some candles that have started to grow and look to be some buds present that’ll hopefully follow suit. Essentially it was cheap, with some reasonable trunk size, and i think it’ll be fine with some time.

I’d imagine it was probable also partly shaded out amongst a bunch of other trees and so on - so the price i paid (i think) accounted for the above.

I may be blind, but presuming it is grafted (Nishiki), it doesn’t seem to have an overly visable graft either.

There’s not masses of movement in the trunk, but there’s enough that i think at absolute worst, it could make a nice (for a beginner like me) literati project or something along those lines.

(Here’s some pics so please feel free to tell me if i’m dreaming about any of the above - be blunt if it’s warranted - difficult to see but there’s a candle on each of 2 secondary branches on the lower branch, and two candles on one of the top branches. Hopefully get some more candles. Another issue is that the 3 top branches come from a similar height which might make a chop to new leader a little trickier than it may have been.)

Also, the wirings purely to hold a branch in place that seemed to have a very slight break in it. I’m sure it’d probably have been ok on its own anwyay

 

[ACooke]

A final option to be considered, particularly when the roots are too important to remove, is to split the root. If the conditions allow it, you are left with two roots, and they can sometimes be much more flexible/pliable so that you can untangle them and lie them out more appropriately.

Oh, interesting.
I had no idea that was doable. I’ve seen if done with branches and trunks - so it makes sense that it’d work for roots too; but hadn’t considered it.

Thanks!

 

[Shibui]

Is the sole reason i’d remove them, an aesthetic one then? Is there any problem with just leaving them as is?

At this stage only aesthetic. Leaving them won't hurt the tree but the bigger they get the bigger the wounds when/if you do get round to removing them. Being in the ground should not hurt either. May not achieve much but just might prevent it drying out too much if it ever stops raining this summer.

The new shoots show that it has some vigour. It probably looks worse than it is because of the recent hard prune. Need to remember that it is summer here so it hasn't had a full season to recover from the chop. Try to fertilise regularly - say every 2 weeks with liquid or every 4 weeks with solid, organic fert or even both.

Was this sold as Nishiki? Nishiki would normally have deep wings of bark well before the trunk got to that stage. There's a slight change of bark right at root level but it would be a very good grafter who could graft that low. My guess is standard Japanese black pine or maybe even another 2 needle species?

Good literati looks easy but is far harder to achieve than it appears. I'd stick to any upright style.
The 3 branches is not as hard as it seems but the tree needs to grow and regain vigour before more work so you have plenty of time to consider and to see how the existing branches respond.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Oh, interesting.
I had no idea that was doable. I’ve seen if done with branches and trunks - so it makes sense that it’d work for roots too; but hadn’t considered it.

Make sure you split the root along the grain of the wood. First, cut a small slit in the root, and then use something like a flat-head screwdriver or butter knife to gently lengthen the cut. The wood should naturally split along the grain.

You can push a small stone into the base of the cut to naturally spread the split root. After a year, you can pop the stone out.

 

[ACooke]

At this stage only aesthetic. Leaving them won't hurt the tree but the bigger they get the bigger the wounds when/if you do get round to removing them. Being in the ground should not hurt either. May not achieve much but just might prevent it drying out too much if it ever stops raining this summer.

The new shoots show that it has some vigour. It probably looks worse than it is because of the recent hard prune. Need to remember that it is summer here so it hasn't had a full season to recover from the chop. Try to fertilise regularly - say every 2 weeks with liquid or every 4 weeks with solid, organic fert or even both.

Was this sold as Nishiki? Nishiki would normally have deep wings of bark well before the trunk got to that stage. There's a slight change of bark right at root level but it would be a very good grafter who could graft that low. My guess is standard Japanese black pine or maybe even another 2 needle species?

Good literati looks easy but is far harder to achieve than it appears. I'd stick to any upright style.
The 3 branches is not as hard as it seems but the tree needs to grow and regain vigour before more work so you have plenty of time to consider and to see how the existing branches respond.

Thanks Shibui,
Yeh i’m not overly concerned about the ongoing health of the tree - more so just didn’t think it was smart to probably smart to start messing with it too much in the current state until it regains some foliage - rightly or wrongly.

Yeh it was definitely sold as a Nishiki, that’s the main reason i bought it to be honest, as i thought it cheap for a Nishiki, but not necessarily a standard JBP. I thought the bark looked more fissured than that of a normal JBP, but i have very little experience with seeing them in the flesh and I didn’t have a huge lot to base it on.

Is there anything in particular that suggest it may not be a species of JBP at all? They did have a bunch of chinese ‘black pine’ also, which i’m not exactly certain what species they were, although bark wise, they looked to differ.

 

[River's Edge]

I would also consider wiring or stapling the roots out of each others way when the repot is done. Easy to make a u shaped staple out of copper wire to help hold the roots in new positions or tie them with raffia, it decomposes rather quickly under the soil so can be forgotten. The wire should be remembered if used ! Lots of time to correct or improve the nebari during development. the smaller roots should easily lift and reposition once the soil on that side is removed. The largest strongest root can be cut back and reduced in form or split over time. A staged approach rather than feeling it must all be accomplished in one go.
When it is time to repot, 1/2 HBR the weak side of the root ball first, leaving the strongest side to aid in the recovery and only messing with the strong side after establishing stronger root ball on the weak side. This will also aid if changing the planting angle during the second repot.
I do note a couple of smaller roots that may be cutting in as they circle the base a bit higher up. Those I would remove right away.

 

[ACooke]

I would also consider wiring or stapling the roots out of each others way when the repot is done. Easy to make a u shaped staple out of copper wire to help hold the roots in new positions or tie them with raffia, it decomposes rather quickly under the soil so can be forgotten. The wire should be remembered if used ! Lots of time to correct or improve the nebari during development. the smaller roots should easily lift and reposition once the soil on that side is removed. The largest strongest root can be cut back and reduced in form or split over time. A staged approach rather than feeling it must all be accomplished in one go.
When it is time to repot, 1/2 HBR the weak side of the root ball first, leaving the strongest side to aid in the recovery and only messing with the strong side after establishing stronger root ball on the weak side. This will also aid if changing the planting angle during the second repot.
I do note a couple of smaller roots that may be cutting in as they circle the base a bit higher up. Those I would remove right away.

View attachment 523789

That sounds like a very do-able approach.
When i ‘slip potted’ it - i couldn’t see much deeper than the mould the pot left although i did take a little soil from the top sides and bottom - i didn’t get the impression the large roots penetrated too deep. Hopefully they branch in to some smaller fibrous roots pretty quickly.

Either way - the raffia sounds like a really good idea i wasn’t previously conscious of. I’ve seen timber spacers and so forth used.

Thanks!

 

[ACooke]

I wanted to throw this photo i took of a tree a month or so back that i absolutely love, which by chance has a very prominent trunk-noose of a root, if for nothing more than for future reference when i revisit this thread.

I find it difficult to imagine whether i’d prefer the tree, had the root been repositioned (obviously hasn’t really been an option for many years now) - i think it’d definitely have had to have had it’s strength throttled earlier on in order for it to look right as a shifted root - but regardless, i absolutely love the tree with the root as is. (Hopefully that doesn’t just speak to an un-refined taste in bonsai ).

As a note: its most likely i’ll attempt to more laterally spread the problem-roots on my tree, and where the above isn’t possible, reduce the strength/potentially remove those i can’t.




I hope the owner of this tree doesn’t mind me posting it. He has a bunch of incredible trees - however, i unfortunately didn’t catch his name to credit him, (assuming he’d want to be).

 

[Dabbler]

I'd say leave them and work them to look pleasing to your eye and the health of the tree. I always let the tree be how the tree is - rather then fixing things with each repot and "trying" to conform the tree to a cookie cutter design. I wouldn't hesitate to get that tree if I saw those root because it doesn't bother me at all. I would just slowly move them and slowly reduce them to be removed years down the road. Just take it slow and do what's best for the tree rather then rushing to get it to conform to an image. In nature tree's do this all the time - so why not in bonsai?

 

[TrevorLarsen]

I personally would vote to leave them I actually like how they look on conifers.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Small crossing roots expendable. Big one no so.