Crab Apple Wars - Creating a Craggy Crab Apple Forest…

[Deep Sea Diver]

Four years ago @Mike Hennigan sent over some Crab Apple seedlings he’d sprouted from trees in Ithaca NY. We were excited as this would be the second forest experiment here

Spindly Sticks in a Pot!

In March 2020 the seedlings arrived from Mike. We promptly planted these in a large training oval, with many holes bored into the bottom. (Holes both for wire and for PacNW drainage.)

The result was the usual bunch of sticks jammed into a pot, with a bit of wire to give a few of the trees a little movement, slight differences in girth. A frequent sight on the BN Forum. Yet we were excited to get crabs in the collection!

… and we tossed it into a part sun area and promptly forgot about it. (Note using full frame images so folks can see details.)



April 2020. All trees showed signs of live. Not surprising, after all, Carbs are pretty tough. Moved to much more sun.



May 2020 - Trees are flourishing now. Patience is important when making a forest from seedlings!

May 2021 - Calipering out slightly now. Note during the winter we jammed some cuttings into the media and they took. (Small one on the back left, front centerish and right side). This practice continues today for other trees.



September 2021 - Nearing the end of the growing year. Tree on the left sending up two other suckers, which remain.

Note the trunks are assuming barrel like shapes, not much taper. Nor much sinuosity, quite unlike crabs in nature.

Therein lies two issues when working with Crab Apples... Getting taper requires radical measures. Sinuosity is a bit easier to obtain.



Next Steps - Mistakes are made in a Search for Taper and Sinuosity!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Part 2 - Mistakes are made in a Search for Taper and Sinuosity!

What were the goals with this project?

First to get a healthy crab forest and keep it so.
Create craggy trees.
Get the best taper possible.…. and yes, create a properly designed forest)

Last post showed a healthy crab forest. So far so good. During those two years several smaller pruning passes were made to accentuate bends, making the tree more craggy. The second winter the forest was pruned back to try to ‘create taper’.

So what was the result? Here’s the crab forest profile in February 2023:



Some of the trees are showing decent movement. Some not a lot. Not a lot of taper. Let’s take a hard look at some trunks.



All marked trees have little or no taper. Several trees D,E,F &G can also use stylistic improvement. The smaller ones A & H, and a couple unmarked ones in the rear, just need proper build up.

In reflection…. sinuosity achieved sort of, taper little to none …and short on styling….
How about design? Well there are A, B and C trees …but does that really matter at this stage? But as a consolation, one can see most every trunk!

Where did things go awry? I’d mostly grasped how to achieve sinousity, but not the taper.

Part of the taper answer came from Brent Walston at Evergreengardenworks. “

Developing Trunk and Taper​

It is difficult to get good taper on Crabs despite the fact that they are relatively fast growing. They always want to be cylinders, albeit fat cylinders as they get older.

So two, maybe three mistakes were made.

First I didn’t do the necessary research on crab apple taper. I’d read Brent’s article earlier, but had focused on the part about building thickness in trunks, not taper. From this information on taper it seems pruning cuts need to be done sooner than I’d done.

Second I‘d focused on creating sinuosity, then tried to create taper as if one could be done without the other. These aren’t separate processes. The result is movement without taper. The question at this point is if the growth will overcome all attempts to create taper.

Third I wasn’t pruning hard enough right from the gitgo, instead was focusing on building health. The result was long straight sections weren‘t worked on.

Easy to say now…

Next: Another costly mistake - Determining priorities… and doing the right thing at the wrong time.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Michael P]

Thanks for the thread! I'm just starting out with some crab apple saplings that have all the taper and sinuosity of a pencil. One of them has an interesting top, have you ever tried to air layer one?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for the thread! I'm just starting out with some crab apple saplings that have all the taper and sinuosity of a pencil. One of them has an interesting top, have you ever tried to air layer one?

Good question. Not yet, but it is doable.

As one can see they do really well with cutbacks, yet key to get at them quick.

There are four other named cultivars here from evergreengardenworks we are in the third year of growing out here. Next year each will all be up potted and looked at for rootwork. If these aren’t candidates for rootwork each will go right in bigger nursery pots for grow out. Then ground layered once these get a couple more years of sacrifice top growth to caliper the trunk.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

Enjoying the thread and your willingness to admit you made mistakes. Now multiple people can learn from them. Thanks!

Thanks for the thread! I'm just starting out with some crab apple saplings that have all the taper and sinuosity of a pencil. One of them has an interesting top, have you ever tried to air layer one?

I have air layered one. It worked the first time and was quite fast, which is saying something for someone who hasn't done very many.

 

[Michael P]

Enjoying the thread and your willingness to admit you made mistakes. Now multiple people can learn from them. Thanks!


I have air layered one. It worked the first time and was quite fast, which is saying something for someone who hasn't done very many.

What time of year did you do the layer? After spring growth had hardened off or earlier?

 

[Kanorin]

What time of year did you do the layer? After spring growth had hardened off or earlier?

After spring growth had hardened off and after it had finished flowering - in my climate this was in the second half of April. I did remove all of the spent flowers as I was performing the air layer figuring that I didn't want the tree to waste energy on the fruits that year.

 

[Michael P]

Thanks!

 

[Shibui]

In my trials I have found that some cultivars layer and strike as cuttings very easily. Some have been reluctant. I have also read that this applies to apple root stock cultivars too.
Seems more about the type than time of year

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Side note. Why am I writing about my mistakes, one asks? Maybe it’s because a lot of what I wrote previously was about successes? … and I learn best from experimenting and making both mistakes and successes... and reflecting? … or maybe a lot of reasons I shouldn’t even write about…? Anyways, it’s off to the races…..

One Step Forward - while taking One Step Back -Another Costly Mistake

Determining priorities and doing the right thing at the wrong time. Some data:

• March 2023 Crab Apple forest was in the pot for three years.
• Crab Apples are very hardy.
• We were experiencing the normal ‘mild‘ spring and the foliage has stalled growth for now..
• Crab Apples are notorious for putting out lots of roots and are often repotted on short schedules, as little as a year.
• The roots have begun to push the surface of the media up out of the pot.
• Roots are visible in the drain holes, but not blocked.
• I’d already done about a dozen repots at this point, with more to go. So not a big deal to add one more.

In the moment I thought it’s a likely time for a repot. So I pulled the trigger. ( Hmm— more on this later.)

Forest out of the pot. A number of circling roots… these were cut back.



Forest undergoing slight reorganization and inspection. Wired together afterwards.



Back together adding media to improve the topography, bring nebari close to surface. Note self formed clump on left.



Mountain Moss build up and the job is done!



The forest did well this year, yet not as well as in the past. There are two types of crabs in this forest. One didn’t do as well as the other until mid summer. So any pruning was only done to the robust crabs. At mid summer the laggards began to push hard… but were well behind the others at the end of the year.

Reflection: Bonsai hobbyists always are faced with choosing between “competing goods”.

The competing goods (my priorities) are: Health of the trees vs Creating a Craggy Forest

Repotting delays the harsh cutbacks needed to achieve the design goals.… and harsh cutbacks can delay repotting.

Was this repot really necessary?

Thinking through the key reasons for repotting

- The pot root bound - water will not penetrate the root ball properly​

- The media is decomposed​

- Changing the Aesthetic or Design:​

- Shifting from a nursery pot to a bonsai pot​

Sure the tree was rootbound, but the media was intact and was draining properly. Pushing the trees up out of the pot was not a health issue, merely an aesthetic one. One that some bonsai practitioners, like Dan Robinson, don’t much care about. Likely the frost could of gone another year or much more without repotting… we’ll never know

By repotting I wasn’t able to cut back really hard to fix the flaws in design.

Why? I just didn’t sit down and think this situation through completely.

Nov 15 2023 Crab forest. Harsh cutbacks are now possible on the majority of the trees, but the repotting weakened a few trees. This will delay the work on these trees until the leaves harden off.



Next: Bite the bullet and make some really hard cutbacks?…. Or play it safe?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Seusneeby]

Newbie question, as I have not worked with crab apples yet, but with a forest composition and the aggressive rooting of the species, will this tend to being root bound consistently or should the root growth slow down over subsequent years and cycles of root work? As I think those issues over, I come to the conclusion if the composition is always going to root aggressively and the media still drains, wouldn't you have to make the hard cut while you can and go with root work later?

I expect this may be too simple a way to look at it.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Newbie question, as I have not worked with crab apples yet, but with a forest composition and the aggressive rooting of the species, will this tend to being root bound consistently or should the root growth slow down over subsequent years and cycles of root work?

This is the tree’s nature when healthy. The root growth will follow this pattern.
As the trees ramify, there may be finer roots. Looking at the images of the roots one can see these are fine at this point just plentiful.

As I think those issues over, I come to the conclusion if the composition is always going to root aggressively and the media still drains, wouldn't you have to make the hard cut while you can and go with root work later?

This is the crux of the situation. Learning what one can and cannot do with each species of tree is an essential part of the hobby. In this case I hadn’t a good feel for how long the trees could of stayed in the pot until the forest was taken out.

At this moment the forest could of simply been returned to the pot for another couple years, without any changes. Instead I chose to further explore… check each tree… and then reposition and add relief to the design. My call.

A few things happened as a result of the repot . It took a year away from advancing the design. I learned much more about crabapple root response and redesigning a forest. Also that I can advance the design for at least five years before the next repot. At this point should be ready for a better pot.

I expect this may be too simple a way to look at it.

Its a start.

btw: Please enter your approximate location and USDA zone so we can better answer any future questions. Do this by clicking on your icon atop the page, then account details. Scroll down and enter appropriate date. Thanks!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shogun610]

Side note. Why am I writing about my mistakes, one asks? Maybe it’s because a lot of what I wrote previously was about successes? … and I learn best from experimenting and making both mistakes and successes... and reflecting? … or maybe a lot of reasons I shouldn’t even write about…? Anyways, it’s off to the races…..

One Step Forward - while taking One Step Back -Another Costly Mistake

Determining priorities and doing the right thing at the wrong time. Some data:

• March 2023 Crab Apple forest was in the pot for three years.
• Crab Apples are very hardy.
• We were experiencing the normal ‘mild‘ spring and the foliage has stalled growth for now..
• Crab Apples are notorious for putting out lots of roots and are often repotted on short schedules, as little as a year.
• The roots have begun to push the surface of the media up out of the pot.
• Roots are visible in the drain holes, but not blocked.
• I’d already done about a dozen repots at this point, with more to go. So not a big deal to add one more.

In the moment I thought it’s a likely time for a repot. So I pulled the trigger. ( Hmm— more on this later.)

Forest out of the pot. A number of circling roots… these were cut back.

View attachment 518132

Forest undergoing slight reorganization and inspection. Wired together afterwards.

View attachment 518135

Back together adding media to improve the topography, bring nebari close to surface. Note self formed clump on left.

View attachment 518133

Mountain Moss build up and the job is done!

View attachment 518134

The forest did well this year, yet not as well as in the past. There are two types of crabs in this forest. One didn’t do as well as the other until mid summer. So any pruning was only done to the robust crabs. At mid summer the laggards began to push hard… but were well behind the others at the end of the year.

Reflection: Bonsai hobbyists always are faced with choosing between “competing goods”.

The competing goods (my priorities) are: Health of the trees vs Creating a Craggy Forest

Repotting delays the harsh cutbacks needed to achieve the design goals.… and harsh cutbacks can delay repotting.

Was this repot really necessary?

Thinking through the key reasons for repotting

- The pot root bound - water will not penetrate the root ball properly​

- The media is decomposed​

- Changing the Aesthetic or Design:​

- Shifting from a nursery pot to a bonsai pot​

Sure the tree was rootbound, but the media was intact and was draining properly. Pushing the trees up out of the pot was not a health issue, merely an aesthetic one. One that some bonsai practitioners, like Dan Robinson, don’t much care about. Likely the frost could of gone another year or much more without repotting… we’ll never know

By repotting I wasn’t able to cut back really hard to fix the flaws in design.

Why? I just didn’t sit down and think this situation through completely.

Nov 15 2023 Crab forest. Harsh cutbacks are now possible on the majority of the trees, but the repotting weakened a few trees. This will delay the work on these trees until the leaves harden off.

View attachment 518146

Next: Bite the bullet and make some really hard cutbacks?…. Or play it safe?

Cheers
DSD sends

I think you but the bullet but also play it safe with some trees that come to a fork and favor the kore tapered smaller trunk lines.. since there is more movement and less branches vs the straighter trunk line and kore branches to make it top heavy.

In your most recent picture I also really love that grouping all the way to left that is almost like a clump .. to me I think this sets the mood so those trunks can be more focal in the composition and can really set the accompanying trees around it with movement, since it’s a crab apple the trunks won’t be straight or in line like typical maple or zelkova etc forest ..

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Biting the Bullet!

Today pulled the forest out of storage and pruned as much as possible recognizing some trees haven’t tossed buds, while one is pushing leaves. Gotta love them that genetics!

Side One



Side Two - Two trees marked were weak last year so only did minor cuts. If they respond well, likely will cut these to lower growth in April/May. The tallest former tree would of been chopped lower, but no buds were present yet where desired.



All cuts were sprayed with alcohol and soon be sealed with Top Jin. Top Jin it has a fungicide as part of the formula. Rains a lot out here!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

More cutbacks! Try to hit a sweet spot. Just about figured these trees out for developing gnarlyness and now taper… although that looks different then other trees!.



One tall tree seems in good shape, another needs a cut back, but doesn’t like to back bud. The third tall tree getting closer.

This cutback ought to allow the taller trees more light. Hopefully I’m this will encourage some back buds.

Another thing to think about with crabs and other fruit trees is thin the leaves as they are mongo prone to rust etc.

Cheers
DSD sends