Crab apple styling choice

[Choppychan]

Hi,

I have recently pruned my crab apple quite aggressively (air layered the top). I am left with a choice of 2 leaders.

The longer one has a good insertion but has a longer distance between buds. The shorter one has is placed directly above a lower branch but it does have much shorter internodal spacing. I am leaning towards the smaller one.
Which branch would you pick as the leader and why? Does the leader need wiring or can I just report and tilt the tree to the right?

Also, do you think I left a bit too much of the trunk. I did so to allow die back. Is that okay or should it be slightly lower down and is it worth cutting the tree again?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Welcome Aboard Bonsai Nut. Didn’t have time to weigh in with rest of your posts.

Before proceeding let’s take care of some important business. Please go atop your page and double click the icon, then click on account details and scroll down to add your approximate locate and USDA zone. This data will follow your posts and will allow folks giving advice to get a more complete picture of your situation prior to advising you. Thanks!

imho Neither.

Actually that wasn’t a very aggressive cutback for a cylindrical trunk crab. (Same for some of maples posted) Crabs have to be forced to create taper. Also one wants to create a gnarly crabapple form rather then the cylindrical shape crabs want to create.

So this means go for the pruning technique that will give you the most taper and odd twists while one builds section by section over time. Two cutbacks a year. Winter and after the leaves have hardened off. So clip and grow after the chop to get the best result.

See image below. Actually make the top cut a 1/2 - 3/4“ above the point marked. Monitor growth. Don’t be afraid to cut to two buds after a branch extends to 5-6 leaves.



Started a thread about a crab forest last year to show this very issue and how to start solving it. Reading through it may help one understand why advised these cuts.

Welcome Aboard once Again. Hope this helps. If not, your tree, your choice!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

Agree with all of what @Deep Sea Diver posted above.
But to answer the specific questions asked:
Tilting the trunk to make use of a bend created by pruning to a side branch is extremely common in bonsai. Won't know whether that's the best choice until you check where the roots are below soil. Not much point tilting a trunk if that brings all the surface roots on one side out of the soil.
Shape of the trunk below the bend will also influence whether tilting is right. It should also influence which choice of new trunk looks best. When I look at the photo there appears to be a slight bend just below the lower branches. May just be the odd angle of that photo but to my eye that bend would fight against the proposed new trunkline above. Like DSD I'm not sure whether either of the upper branches are good choices as a new leader.

Leaving a short bit of trunk is common practice. Both those proposed leaders look strong enough to cope with a closer chop but allowing the tree to die back naturally then do a final trim to the correct angle and place is also common practice.

 

[Choppychan]

Welcome Aboard Bonsai Nut. Didn’t have time to weigh in with rest of your posts.

Before proceeding let’s take care of some important business. Please go atop your page and double click the icon, then click on account details and scroll down to add your approximate locate and USDA zone. This data will follow your posts and will allow folks giving advice to get a more complete picture of your situation prior to advising you. Thanks!

imho Neither.

Actually that wasn’t a very aggressive cutback for a cylindrical trunk crab. (Same for some of maples posted) Crabs have to be forced to create taper. Also one wants to create a gnarly crabapple form rather then the cylindrical shape crabs want to create.

So this means go for the pruning technique that will give you the most taper and odd twists while one builds section by section over time. Two cutbacks a year. Winter and after the leaves have hardened off. So clip and grow after the chop to get the best result.

See image below. Actually make the top cut a 1/2 - 3/4“ above the point marked. Monitor growth. Don’t be afraid to cut to two buds after a branch extends to 5-6 leaves.

View attachment 528858

Started a thread about a crab forest last year to show this very issue and how to start solving it. Reading through it may help one understand why advised these cuts.

Welcome Aboard once Again. Hope this helps. If not, your tree, your choice!

cheers
DSD sends

Thank you! Interesting, I had not considered chopping further down. Here is another pic from a different angle.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

The only issue imho here is what angle to repot the tree, not the height of the cut. One can shorten the two branches to two buds to begin with. Crabs are know to backbud profusely if treated correctly. So likely a number of options will appear.

At some point one might consider either pulling the tree out and looking at the roots, or carefully excavating the media to see what the nebari looks like to determine possible angle shifts. This could be done now if the tree hasn’t pushed and buds. Crabs are very tough.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Choppychan]

The only issue imho here is what angle to repot the tree, not the height of the cut. One can shorten the two branches to two buds to begin with. Crabs are know to backbud profusely if treated correctly. So likely a number of options will appear.

At some point one might consider either pulling the tree out and looking at the roots, or carefully excavating the media to see what the nebari looks like to determine possible angle shifts. This could be done now if the tree hasn’t pushed and buds. Crabs are very tough.

cheers
DSD sends

Thank you for your advice. I think I will bite the bullet and got for the advised cut (lower down with couple of buds left) leave a stump.

 

[Shibui]

New pic is still from well above the tree and still looking down the trunk so still hard to gauge how much bend is in that trunk. When taking photos of bonsai or potential bonsai it is best to shoot from level with the tree. That way we can see exactly which way the bends are and how much bend there is. Often a couple of extra shots from the side and back helps others see bends that are hidden from view and where branches start and which way they grow.

The lower chop back to just a single branch looks like it will enhance the existing trunk bend rather than going against it so that's a good thing.
Still no sign of surface roots to decide if the trunk tilt will be easy or even possible. I would not do a radical trunk chop without checking rootage first.

 

[Choppychan]

Front and back. The lowest branch like you said seems that it would provide the most seamless transition. I like the movement od the 2nd lowest branch as well (blue cut) but it is a bit more horizontal compared to thr yellow cut

 

[Dabbler]

I would actually chop it all the way to like 8" or so and grow a new leader - I have 4 or so crab apples and always chop them low

 

[Choppychan]

I would actually chop it all the way to like 8" or so and grow a new leader - I have 4 or so crab apples and always chop them low

So you'd chop it below the lowest branch? Why do you chop so low? Does that improve taper?

 

[Dabbler]

So you'd chop it below the lowest branch? Why do you chop so low? Does that improve taper?

Yes - I would google about trunk chopping and bonsai - should be some really good info to learn and make sure you do it at the correct time.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I would actually chop it all the way to like 8" or so and grow a new leader - I have 4 or so crab apples and always chop them low

Gosh.

Yes this drastic chop can certainly be done. Yet any chop depends on OP’s goals with the tree and their time frame. As a respondent one has to recognize we all have different goals for our trees in bonsai. Sometimes new folks haven’t sorted this yet.

So you'd chop it below the lowest branch? Why do you chop so low? Does that improve taper?

It’s all about scale. Which means what size of tree do you envision this tree being when it’s finished? Understood this is hard to predict when one first starts off, but it’s good to get a rough estimate in mind.

So the answer to this question is yes it will lower the point of first taper. It won’t improve the taper, just lower the point of first step down. That’s good if one is shooting for a smaller tree and doesn’t mind losing a couple years of growth from where the tree is now. Time is an important consideration.

Right now one has a good starting point. A chop just about the lower two branches will yield a mid sized tree, with one slight bend below the branches and a good bend where the two branches are. Chopping below this will yield a slightly smaller sized tree if one is careful…recalling crab’s natural rampant growth habits. It will just cost time.

One of the reasons to pull back the soil on this tree is to see if the existing roots are in a good position to give a better tilt than at present. It’s not a strict fail if a better angle isn’t possible with present nebari as on can always ground layer a crab down the line to get a better nebari and angle.

Cheers,
DSD sends

 

[Choppychan]

Gosh.

Yes this drastic chop can certainly be done. Yet any chop depends on OP’s goals with the tree and their time frame. As a respondent one has to recognize we all have different goals for our trees in bonsai. Sometimes new folks haven’t sorted this yet.



It’s all about scale. Which means what size of tree do you envision this tree being when it’s finished? Understood this is hard to predict when one first starts off, but it’s good to get a rough estimate in mind.

So the answer to this question is yes it will lower the point of first taper. It won’t improve the taper, just lower the point of first step down. That’s good if one is shooting for a smaller tree and doesn’t mind losing a couple years of growth from where the tree is now. Time is an important consideration.

Right now one has a good starting point. A chop just about the lower two branches will yield a mid sized tree, with one slight bend below the branches and a good bend where the two branches are. Chopping below this will yield a slightly smaller sized tree if one is careful…recalling crab’s natural rampant growth habits. It will just cost time.

One of the reasons to pull back the soil on this tree is to see if the existing roots are in a good position to give a better tilt than at present. It’s not a strict fail if a better angle isn’t possible with present nebari as on can always ground layer a crab down the line to get a better nebari and angle.

Cheers,
DSD sends

The roots seem to be much more pronounced on one side than the other. There's an ugly root that crossed over which I believe needs to be chopped off. In terms of size for this tree, I'd like it to be medium to medium small (40 cm max).

I'm assuming the front is the side with the more pronounced roots, isn't it? based on the nebari would one of the lowest branch still be a viable option?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Can’t tell the height to the lowest branches. So cut point is hard to tell for a 40 cm tree. Figure no more than 1/3 total height to first branches. So that will be your call.

Here’s my thoughts about the roots. Typical crab layout.

At this point one might just clean off the roots and see what’s possible and get it over with. Try to see if the roots can support the best angle change. Keep in mind what @Shibui mentioned.

Cut crossing roots short (or off as long as there are fine ones nearby. ) If the roots can support the best angle you prefer plant at that angle. Assure to rake out radially around the trunk before repotting.

If the roots will not support the angle change replant at the best possible angle and plan to ground layer down the line once the superstructure is further developed.

Cheers
DSD sends.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

. Here’s an example of properly raked out and sorted roots on a Winged Elm we are repotting today.

First time for a crabapple will show more coarse roots and will need particular attention to shortening the longer and sifting the unruly roots. Each succeeding report will have finer roots.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shibui]

The roots seem to be much more pronounced on one side than the other. There's an ugly root that crossed over which I believe needs to be chopped off. In terms of size for this tree, I'd like it to be medium to medium small (40 cm max).

I'm assuming the front is the side with the more pronounced roots, isn't it? based on the nebari would one of the lowest branch still be a viable option?

Removing an ugly root on crab apple is no problem. They can cope with really massive root reduction - like maybe 80-90% so one or 2 roots off is no problem.
Sometimes the side with most roots is OK as a front but I would look at whether there are more roots a bit lower on the other side. It may be possible to tilt the trunk until the high roots are at the same level as the lower ones then see if that new trunk angle looks good with any of the branches above.
In some cases the lower roots are just way too low. That brings us back to either having an uneven nebari and try to hide the worst or to layering to get a better placed root system. Layering has the additional advantage of allowing us to choose the height of the trunk.