Couple of cedar trees i'm training on

[maroun.c]

Hi,
Picked up these two small cedars ( cedar of lebanon) and will be either growing in pot or soil to grow them.and also training on conifers with them as I have miserably failed with a pine and cedar I had before.



Forst one is an smaller one and im also tempted to place ina pot and train on repoting wiring and styling conifers even though it's small.
My question is if I place in pots or soil to grow do I start preparing the branches? Like cutting branches that are shadowing ones I want to use like lower branches or wiring few branches ? Or do u keep all branches to thicken trunk faster ?
Specifically for the taller one it has too many branches which I'm not sure if I should clean now or later? I am still looking for better material to directly work on in bonsai pots but those were the best two i could find so far.
Thanks

 

[0soyoung]

If the soil/substrate is freely draining, it is better to not repot. Repotting damages the roots and always sets back growth/vitality until the roots have recovered (which is a slow process for conifers). However, if it is not freely draining, the roots are not getting the oxygen they need to live - repotting then becomes the first priority. When repotting conifers it is safer to HBR, that is remove old soil from the roots on one side of the trunk and then do the other half a year later. This can be done in late summer or in spring, 'as buds swell'.

I think you want to keep the low branches if at all possible, because they would be needed for most potential bonsai designs. So, you must assure that they have good sun exposure. The tree also needs to be growing vigorously before it will back bud to any significant degree. Consequently, this usually means that if you try to remove foliage and branches from the mid-height of the tree. Then low branches are not shaded and there is a vigorous (sacrificial) apex with lots of foliage to drive vigor and thicken the trunk. If the trunk is flexible, you also have the option to wire it and bend it into an interesting line as well as placing low branches so they get as much sunlight as possible.

After a year or two, the tree should be growing vigorously. Reduction in the apical (sacrifice) foliage will then also affect back budding lower down on the tree. Around August, a year or two from now, would be a good time to do this, but not this year. Alternatively, do this in spring 'as buds swell', instead.

To sum up: Repot only if and when water doesn't drain rapidly from the pot. Keep low branches (that are likely to be in your bonsai) and apical foliage. Get the tree(s) growing vigorously. Then reduce excessive apical foliage in late summer or in spring 'as buds swell' to induce budding lower down.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the great explanation. Will make sure to follow. Small one actually came in a thick bag so I had to slip pot it. While removing from the bag a bit of the soil broke down from one side and I could see healthy roots. Other one is in typical nursery soil but drains well so far.
Just to make sure I got it right, trunk wire and reshape can be done now at least for the small one ? Large one trunk isnt flexible enough I'm afraid so might have to be a straight trunk. Wouldn't mind a formal upright if I can get away with with the little movement trunk has.

 

[0soyoung]

Sure, you can do wiring now. Given that you just potted it, you should be careful to not move it around (with respect to the pot). Movement in the pot can break young, tender roots. So, just be careful.

The bigger one you could wind up chopping down to a branch and making it be the new leader. This is the classic way pines are developed. Grow it until the lower trunk section is about as thick as you want, then chop (in spring) to that low branch and let it grow until is is almost at thick and repeat, so you wind up with a zig-zag trunk that tapers. The lower thicker section(s) won't thicken much until the upper stem is nearly as thick. It is another option. With wiring the trunk tends to be seen as feminine and you will want wandering sinuous branches in the future. The zig-zag form, with its sharp/abrupt changes in direction tends to be seen a masculine. Of course, it is not mandatory to zig zag. If the branch you choose for the next trunk section is reasonably thin, you can wire it up to make a formal upright or to whatever angle you want.

My point is that you can readily make at least two very different looking trees. You don't need to accept and the trunk you bought --> you can make many different forms with wiring and pruning. It is only the part from the ground to the first branch that you are 'stuck with'. I think this is a large part of the fun.

btw, I think formal upright is the most challenging form to make. The trunk must taper but yet be straight as an arrow. Every little flaw that can be disguised with other forms, is magnified. Formal upright trunks are a bonsai/horticulture tour de force, IMHO. I really don't mean to discourage you from trying. Success would certainly demonstrate that you are an elite, accomplished artist.

 

[maroun.c]

Crystal clear! Thank u.
Indeed that's what I have in mind I have picked up these 2 cedars and also 3 yamadori pines and will.follow exactly what u explain to have fun and learn.
As for the formal upright I don't think any of the trunks is good for it as they both have some movement at the base. Will try to find me one to try as well as it seems a good practice as u mention.
Appreciate all the Info.

 

[maroun.c]

Long one seems to be losing some needles (checknin pot and on ground) smaller o e which was reported seems to be doing fine . Anything I can do ?
Large one.




Small one



Thanks

Smallest o e I've split repot in better soil, larger one although still.in nursery soil but nursery had it for a year and it was doi g great and soil does drain on watering. Any advice what to do?

 

[MrWunderful]

It might be shock from the repotting. I have multiple cedars, and none of them like to be repotted. My dwarf blue sapphire dropped every single one of its needles on first repot.

I would try to disturb it as little as possible, protect it from hot afternoon sun and make sure the roots get somewhat dry inbetween waterings, cedars do great in mediterainian climates.

 

[maroun.c]

Can they still.come back if they loose all their needles ?

 

[MrWunderful]

Can they still.come back if they loose all their needles ?

They can, but it depends on the overall health of the tree. If the cambium is still green after the needles drop, then you are probably good.