Cotinus coggygria (smoke bush)

[ToastyWrench]

I recently got these three smaller smoke bushes for a pretty good deal. ( Midwest, zone 6

for a few relatively interesting trees at a good price I thought I’d give them a shot.

So I’ve already gone through and tracked down damn near every thread I could find on here over cotinus but I’m curious for anyones recent updates or experiences with this species. Im debating on the timing of large cut backs (thinking fall once the leaves change color and right before leaf drop with potentially sacrificing flower buds), will it back bud? How do they react to repotting and what’s the general timing or indicators for it (as they seem to leaf out pretty late), soil mixes, things you would have done differently, any pruning techniques that have worked well, etc.

really just hoping to hear anyones experience with these guys and to get any bit of info I can going into it.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
@sorce has a thread going which he can point out. I think it is called ‘start smoking’ or the like.
Here is my take on Cotinus. I have been trying this species for a while with very limited success. They don’t like root work, hard prune in Winter/early spring is fine. They flower at the end of the first new growth early summer (maybe May your hemisphere). Usual open soil mix works well but keep it on the drier side. You can grow sacrifice branches while keeping other areas trimmed, or just let is go in a large pot for a few more years. Depends on size etc.
Charles

 

[sorce]

Haha! ToastyWrench! I'm making up my own back stories for that one, so you may have to come clean with it, or risk the rumors!

Welcome to Crazy!

I got mine with powdery mildew a few falls ago, I reckon repotted a couple summers ago.
Pretty gangster and rather predictable, those are more important traits to me than "small leaves" or "good growth habits", because they are the toasty tools need to achieve, good structure and small leaves. Or at least pleasant flowers.

I think the bark contrasted by the odd flowers is what is going to "sell" these. The difficulty then becomes getting the flowers anywhere near the bark.

I haven't refreshed my studies of the thread, https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/started-smoking.28839/

But I am working on understanding how and when to prune, in order to make use of the backward noding distance these have.

Almost everything begins with close nodes then stretches, we cut back to those close nodes.

These stretch long nodes then tighten up and the flowers come off that tightened up part.

Similar to how you early pinch a Japanese Maple, I think we may find some success in keeping them vigorous enough to slip in a heavy negative move that keeps the "second flush" of growth tight throughout.

I have been building with what is possible, mostly those long nodes, but keeping it overly compact to figure it out. "It" being close flowers. Otherwise I don't think you can "sell" these giant ass leaves.

Unless you let people crush em and smell em! I would certainly pay for that!

I reckon this was winter 3, but after this Covaids Bullshit I may have had this for seven years at this point!


Don't let anybody convince you winter means anything more difficult than this.


Sorce

 

[ToastyWrench]

Hi,
@sorce has a thread going which he can point out. I think it is called ‘start smoking’ or the like.
Here is my take on Cotinus. I have been trying this species for a while with very limited success. They don’t like root work, hard prune in Winter/early spring is fine. They flower at the end of the first new growth early summer (maybe May your hemisphere). Usual open soil mix works well but keep it on the drier side. You can grow sacrifice branches while keeping other areas trimmed, or just let is go in a large pot for a few more years. Depends on size etc.
Charle

Hi,
@sorce has a thread going which he can point out. I think it is called ‘start smoking’ or the like.
Here is my take on Cotinus. I have been trying this species for a while with very limited success. They don’t like root work, hard prune in Winter/early spring is fine. They flower at the end of the first new growth early summer (maybe May your hemisphere). Usual open soil mix works well but keep it on the drier side. You can grow sacrifice branches while keeping other areas trimmed, or just let is go in a large pot for a few more years. Depends on size etc.
Charles

Hello there! Greatly appreciate the info, the soil mix has been something I’ve been debating on, nice to know it likes it on the drier side
-Toasty

 

[ToastyWrench]

Haha! ToastyWrench! I'm making up my own back stories for that one, so you may have to come clean with it, or risk the rumors!

Welcome to Crazy!

I got mine with powdery mildew a few falls ago, I reckon repotted a couple summers ago.
Pretty gangster and rather predictable, those are more important traits to me than "small leaves" or "good growth habits", because they are the toasty tools need to achieve, good structure and small leaves. Or at least pleasant flowers.

I think the bark contrasted by the odd flowers is what is going to "sell" these. The difficulty then becomes getting the flowers anywhere near the bark.

I haven't refreshed my studies of the thread, https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/started-smoking.28839/

But I am working on understanding how and when to prune, in order to make use of the backward noding distance these have.

Almost everything begins with close nodes then stretches, we cut back to those close nodes.

These stretch long nodes then tighten up and the flowers come off that tightened up part.

Similar to how you early pinch a Japanese Maple, I think we may find some success in keeping them vigorous enough to slip in a heavy negative move that keeps the "second flush" of growth tight throughout.

I have been building with what is possible, mostly those long nodes, but keeping it overly compact to figure it out. "It" being close flowers. Otherwise I don't think you can "sell" these giant ass leaves.

Unless you let people crush em and smell em! I would certainly pay for that!

I reckon this was winter 3, but after this Covaids Bullshit I may have had this for seven years at this point!
View attachment 425241

Don't let anybody convince you winter means anything more difficult than this.
View attachment 425242

Sorce

Hey there sorce love the insight, I think I’m gonna try and do a few different techniques on these guys (or at least different timing of techniques).
I’m curious how these might have back budded for you in the past.
perhaps heavier fall fertilizer application would get these guys ramped up a bit for spring push followed by a partial defoliation?
And hey! Structure and reliability are the important ones, with that the rest boils down to good technique and timing haha (too bad I’m working on both).

and backstories are most certainly welcome, let the rumors fly haha

 

[SgtPilko]

I have one, not a massive fan as it has shrubby style growth habit, brittle twigs, long internodes and that fluffy stuff it calls flowers that gets everywhere!

That being said they are tough. I like your #2, maybe get those existing branches down with some movement (depends how brittle they are) trim them back and see if it encourages some new branches where you need them. If the nodes are too long though at some point you'll have to cut back and grow again slowly.

There are different varieties, mine is 'Young Lady' and a dwarf which in theory could be better for bonsai.

 

[ToastyWrench]

I have one, not a massive fan as it has shrubby style growth habit, brittle twigs, long internodes and that fluffy stuff it calls flowers that gets everywhere!

That being said they are tough. I like your #2, maybe get those existing branches down with some movement (depends how brittle they are) trim them back and see if it encourages some new branches where you need them. If the nodes are too long though at some point you'll have to cut back and grow again slowly.

There are different varieties, mine is 'Young Lady' and a dwarf which in theory could be better for bonsai.

Yeah luckily right now I think the twigs and larger branches can still take a good amount of bend (for a deciduous)

I’m planning on going with repots am some initial styling, that second one is probably my favorite, want to get some of those branches down and potentially cut back to some smaller twigs and get some taper as well. May have to wait till this autumn or next spring for pruning, I’m a little wary of overloading the tree right of the bat.

as far as cultivars go I’m gonna be in a bit of a guessing game as these didn’t give any hints so I’m excited for these to finally leaf out
-Toasty

 

[SgtPilko]

Yeah best to go slowly one piece at a time, its a marathon not a sprint! Good luck