Copper wire - ideal coil length?

[sparklemotion]

If you had the ability to have arbitrary lengths of copper wire annealed for you (with the caveat that the coils are limited to about an 8" diameter), how many feet/meters would you want per coil?

On the one hand, I could see how "infinite" would allow you to cut down on waste, but I also feel like lengths of greater than 20ft or so could get unwieldy.

I'm curious what people with more wiring experience would prefer. I won't be surprised if it's a matter of taste/preference.

This is a what 500ft of 16g copper looks like (in the company of some larger gauge coils), if you were curious:

 

[Adair M]

If you had the ability to have arbitrary lengths of copper wire annealed for you (with the caveat that the coils are limited to about an 8" diameter), how many feet/meters would you want per coil?

On the one hand, I could see how "infinite" would allow you to cut down on waste, but I also feel like lengths of greater than 20ft or so could get unwieldy.

I'm curious what people with more wiring experience would prefer. I won't be surprised if it's a matter of taste/preference.

This is a what 500ft of 16g copper looks like (in the company of some larger gauge coils), if you were curious:

View attachment 190165

It depends.

Here is a new coil of 16 gauge from Jim Gremel. Is about 7 or 8 inches across. He sells by weight, not length.



Heavier gauges he makes larger diameter coils. Thinner wire he makes smaller spools.

Since he sells by weight, the length of wire of heavier gauges is less.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Agreed with above. Once annealed less bending is necessary and desirable as Cu work hardens very quickly when un rolling and wiring tree. Needed is soft wire to get job done. Therefore anything but very thinnest size needs bigger diameter roll. Watching professional work seems his rolls are about 1 foot diameter. Length is according to pocket book and how heavy roll you wish to work with.

 

[River's Edge]

If you had the ability to have arbitrary lengths of copper wire annealed for you (with the caveat that the coils are limited to about an 8" diameter), how many feet/meters would you want per coil?

On the one hand, I could see how "infinite" would allow you to cut down on waste, but I also feel like lengths of greater than 20ft or so could get unwieldy.

I'm curious what people with more wiring experience would prefer. I won't be surprised if it's a matter of taste/preference.

This is a what 500ft of 16g copper looks like (in the company of some larger gauge coils), if you were curious:

View attachment 190165

The 8 inch diameter would be a deal breaker for me. In particular with the heavier wire a larger diameter coil is my preference. I am used to larger coils and find it easier to work with and accurately estimate the required amount to cut off with a straighter piece of heavier wire from bigger coils. The smaller coil 8" is perfectly fine for smaller gauge 22,20,18. After that i like an increased diameter.

 

[sorce]

I won't be surprised if it's a matter of taste/preference.

It had better be a matter of "it depends"!

Some trees can get done faster with a whole roll in hand.
Some branches(gauges) on a tree can be done with a whole roll in hand, while some may not be.
Some foliage can take more whacking(juniper)...whole roll.
Some(Boxwood) can not.

The only CONSTANT...
Have more than you need in hand.
NEVER use "NOT ENOUGH".
ALWAYS wire the entire length appropriately and don't forget the anchor where your larger gauges end is just as important as the beginning anchor.

Longer is better until it is unsafe. eek

One thing for sure...
Gremel and likely anyone else selling annealed wire that is any good is heating it slowly and evenly in a kiln....
Which is why they can fire so many coils.

In a fire, charcoal, wood, stove, etc....
You'll never get that many coils annealed evenly.

When it comes to "muscle memory".
It is Impossible to properly and safely wire a tree with copper that has points of differing softness.

Of course this may be a "matter of taste"..

Which is really just a lack of attention to detail....AKA...the "good enough" crowd.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

AKA...the "good enough" crowd.

Someone called me?
If I would do it right the first time, there wouldn't be any practice.
Good enough.. Skip a week forward.. Not good enough, redo, good enough. Skip a month forward, not good enough anymore, redo. Repeat infinite times until satisfied.
I started wiring other things in the backyard just for the sake of it, but the GF kicked my ass for trying to wire the tulips in a literati style.

As for length, 6, 14 and 23 meters is the size of the rolls sold in the hardware stores around here.That'll have to do. For the extra small wiring I use rolls of 150m. But then again, I cut it to length before use, so it doesn't really matter that much how much is on the roll, as long as it's enough I guess.

 

[sparklemotion]

Thanks for your input, all.

8" is the maximum capacity of my baby kiln (it's main job is enameling).

I think that for this project, I'll go with 25-50ft lengths of the smaller gauges (12 and up), and 10ft for 8g and 10g, just to see how I like it.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The reason why "it depends" is that annealed copper will harden even when you uncoil it from a roll. With smaller caliper wire it isn't a big deal, but the thicker the wire, the more problematic it may become. Bigger coils are always better. With thick wire, it is best not to coil it at ALL.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for your input, all.

8" is the maximum capacity of my baby kiln (it's main job is enameling).

I think that for this project, I'll go with 25-50ft lengths of the smaller gauges (12 and up), and 10ft for 8g and 10g, just to see how I like it.

Thanks for your input, all.

8" is the maximum capacity of my baby kiln (it's main job is enameling).

I think that for this project, I'll go with 25-50ft lengths of the smaller gauges (12 and up), and 10ft for 8g and 10g, just to see how I like it.

Here’s another example of Gremel’s wire, Gauge 6 this time.


I have some Japanese wire, their coils are huge!

 

[Adair M]

I don’t know how long Gremel’s wire is, he sells by the weight.

You could go to Julian Adams website and check his out, he sells by the foot.

I prefer larger coils by size. Larger coils means it’s less bent to begin with. When I’m working with the wire, I try to measure out and cut off just enough for the job, and the less I have to bend it prior to actually using it the better.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks for your input, all.

8" is the maximum capacity of my baby kiln (it's main job is enameling).

I think that for this project, I'll go with 25-50ft lengths of the smaller gauges (12 and up), and 10ft for 8g and 10g, just to see how I like it.

I have used the outdoor barbecue with good results, allowing various size coils. The most economical options i have found so far involve the coils of household wiring such as 12/2,14/2. I strip the plastic coating and end up with three lengths of the same gauge for each roll. ( rainy day activity in the workshop) Usually a 30 metre or 100 foot roll. This is great for initial wiring developing trees. In those sizes a 100 ft roll is great. I create a 12 inch coil before cooking on the barbecue. So far i have been unable to decide which BBQ sauce i prefer. Leave on the barbecue until red hot all the way through, then chill quickly. ( bucket of water) or chill slowly ( turn Barbecue off and open lid).
For the very best results, i purchase Jim Gremel's wire Love this stuff for fine wiring and show trees. It is annealed better and easier to apply. Must be his sauce.[/QUOTE]

 

[Adair M]

I have used the outdoor barbecue with good results, allowing various size coils. The most economical options i have found so far involve the coils of household wiring such as 12/2,14/2. I strip the plastic coating and end up with three lengths of the same gauge for each roll. ( rainy day activity in the workshop) Usually a 30 metre or 100 foot roll. This is great for initial wiring developing trees. In those sizes a 100 ft roll is great. I create a 12 inch coil before cooking on the barbecue. So far i have been unable to decide which BBQ sauce i prefer. Leave on the barbecue until red hot all the way through, then chill quickly. ( bucket of water) or chill slowly ( turn Barbecue off and open lid).
For the very best results, i purchase Jim Gremel's wire Love this stuff for fine wiring and show trees. It is annealed better and easier to apply. Must be his sauce.

[/QUOTE]
Jim has done extensive testing of how hot, for how long, for each gauge. Then measured how much force is required to bend.

He is an ex Boeing engineer. Kinda good at this kind of thing!

 

[River's Edge]

It had better be a matter of "it depends"!

Some trees can get done faster with a whole roll in hand.
Some branches(gauges) on a tree can be done with a whole roll in hand, while some may not be.
Some foliage can take more whacking(juniper)...whole roll.
Some(Boxwood) can not.

The only CONSTANT...
Have more than you need in hand.
NEVER use "NOT ENOUGH".
ALWAYS wire the entire length appropriately and don't forget the anchor where your larger gauges end is just as important as the beginning anchor.

Longer is better until it is unsafe. eek

One thing for sure...
Gremel and likely anyone else selling annealed wire that is any good is heating it slowly and evenly in a kiln....
Which is why they can fire so many coils.

In a fire, charcoal, wood, stove, etc....
You'll never get that many coils annealed evenly.

When it comes to "muscle memory".
It is Impossible to properly and safely wire a tree with copper that has points of differing softness.

Of course this may be a "matter of taste"..

Which is really just a lack of attention to detail....AKA...the "good enough" crowd.

Sorce

Even Heat Throughout is the key i think as well, and not bending additionally or more than once when applying. I think it was my Grandfather who told me " good enough usually isn't". Never truer, then when it comes to wiring. The difference in detail is outstanding in every way. I have learned to appreciate both the form and function of wiring. As noted by Sorce, the right amount to do the job, no more!
Every time i see a tree wired by a top professional i pick up additional tricks of the trade. And i realise how much more i should practise. Or as my teacher first told me " take it off, do it again" and second, and third, and fourth and then "maybe you should take a break".

 

[River's Edge]

Jim has done extensive testing of how hot, for how long, for each gauge. Then measured how much force is required to bend.

He is an ex Boeing engineer. Kinda good at this kind of thing![/QUOTE]
Even to the point that the coil sizes nest within each other for proper packing without damage in the standard box format for his shipping company. Also custom wood reels to form the coils to standard size and length/weight. very simple but effective well thought out process going on in his studio/workshop/classroom. ATD.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Jim has done extensive testing of how hot, for how long, for each gauge. Then measured how much force is required to bend.

He is an ex Boeing engineer. Kinda good at this kind of thing!

Is Jim still around? His site is gone...

 

[Adair M]

Is Jim still around? His site is gone...

Yes, yes, and yes!!!

He got tired of paying for it. (Probably, it just slipped his mind to pay for the renewal! If you know Jim, you’ll agree that’s what probably happened!)

Jim ca be reached at jimgremel@gmail.com

I think at this point he figures he has all the customers he can service, and they all know his phone number, so he doesn’t need a web page.

If anyone needs his phone number, PM me.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

He got tired of paying for it. (Probably, it just slipped his mind to pay for the renewal! If you know Jim, you’ll agree that’s what probably happened!)

That's good, because www.jimgremel.com is now an Arabian gambling site ?

 

[Adair M]

That's good, because www.jimgremel.com is now an Arabian gambling site

Yeah, probably as soon as it expired, someone bought the rights to the domain name, and tried to extort a huge fee from Jim to reclaim it.

I think he’s just glad it’s not a porn site!

 

[River's Edge]

Is Jim still around? His site is gone...

He was a vendor at the BIB show in January, sold wire and had some amazing trees for sale as well. He is also scheduled to be at the Rendezvous in Milwaukee, Oregon in September. He has some first class collected material and very high quality show juniper. I love his signature double cascades. It is well worth the trip to make an appointment and visit Deer Meadows if you are in his neck of the woods. Be prepared to spend some time. Jim has also experimented a lot with Bonsai growing techniques and readily shares his experience. A little tricky to find along the back roads, even with Garmin. As anyone who has been there will agree. I find it easier now that I have been several times. There are a few, very good stops for Bonsai within driving distance from my favourite lunch spot at Vi Sattui.
Deer Meadows, Evergreen , Lone Pine, and probably a lot more i have yet to discover! Maybe later this year.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

That's good, because www.jimgremel.com is now an Arabian gambling site ?

Not a logical progression, is it?