Confusing seed propagation

[papkey5]

Good morning all from Logan and it’s first night of frost. This fall I have been doing a lot of seed collecting of:
English Yew
English Oak
Hedge Maple
A red leafed jm cultivar( not sure if its an Atropurpureum or bloodgood.)
Another Jm (aka Shigitatsusawa)
European Beech

I know that seeds won’t come true to the parent when propagating with seeds, but where is the distinction? An acorn creates an Oak tree and from my understanding the Japanese Maple seedlings will need to be used as rootstock for grafting. Are jm the only tree with this distinction? Is grafting only necessary when you want a specific cultivar?

 

[penumbra]

Briefly, species generally come true from seed. Occasionally one comes out as distinctly different than the parent trees. This is where cultivars come from. Often a quirk of nature but sometimes encouraged by cross breeding as well as other treatments that can involve hormones, chemicals or intentional environmental factors.
A natural hybrid example is the Leyland Cypress. The tree is a hybrid of Monterey cypress (Cupressus macrocarpa) and Nootka cypress (Cupressus nootkatensis). Hybrids, like this one, are frequently sterile.
Man made hybrids are commonplace. Most food crops, roses, annual flowers are common examples. When these hybrids produce seed, they are usually throwbacks to the original plants but again there is some genetic variation which can produce another hybrid.
So your native species of English Yew, English Oak and Hedge Maple will produce seeds in kind, unless they are themselves hybrids of these plants in which case the seeds are generally like the species but with a greater chance of mutation, thus a new hybrid can be formed.
Japanese Maple seedlings are quite variable and can produce seeds like the parent, like the species, or something else altogether. Most will be like the species. Almost any of these can be good landscape or bonsai material. And of course they are all good for grafting but that is generally more of a commercial take so that identical plants can be produced. A red Japanese maple can produce green or red maples but a green maple is going to produce a red maple only very very rarely.
There is so much more to it than this and I would recommend reading up on it a bit if you find it of interest.

 

[leatherback]

The DNA is a manual for the plant on how to grow. All characteristics of the plant are written down in it. By sexual reproduction (=creating seed) the characteristics of the mother and father plant are each for 50% in the plant. Same like kids in humans: THe kids look partially like each of the parents.

Certain varieties, such as cork bark japanese maple, are based on a genetic muttation or special combination of parent plants and can become named described versions of the plant (Cultivars). These are reproduced by cutting, grafts, airlayers etc. This way, 100% of the genetic code of the parent is in the kid.

If you take seeds from a "wild version" of the species, you will get pretty much the same thing back. If however you take a cultivar and let this be fertilized by another tree, which may or may not be the cultivar, you will have to wait which of the characteristics of the cultivar are transported.

Add to this that certain traits are dominant (such as brown eyes in humans) and certain are recessive (Such as blue eyes in humans) or even depend on multiple genes (such as hair color) .. it gets very tricky to grow plants from seed with very special characteristics as found in cultivars.

 

[Eric Group]

Good morning all from Logan and it’s first night of frost. This fall I have been doing a lot of seed collecting of:
English Yew
English Oak
Hedge Maple
A red leafed jm cultivar( not sure if its an Atropurpureum or bloodgood.)
Another Jm (aka Shigitatsusawa)
European Beech

I know that seeds won’t come true to the parent when propagating with seeds, but where is the distinction? An acorn creates an Oak tree and from my understanding the Japanese Maple seedlings will need to be used as rootstock for grafting. Are jm the only tree with this distinction? Is grafting only necessary when you want a specific cultivar?

The two before me broke it down pretty well, but broadly soeaking, there is nkthing that says JM from seed HAVE TO be root stock for grafting, they can produce very nice trees on their own, often with surprising characteristics. Just watch them for the ones that have better color, smaller leaves/internodes... I have found many seedlings in my area come out with a Sango Kaku (red bark) sort of look, many wind up with more of a cork bark in the area I used to live in on the other side of town because a close friend had some corkers in the ground at his house... I’ve been growing them from seed for years and been very happy with the results. Sure, I use some ugly one for grafting too..

 

[Sean Walker]

Great info!
Thank you for the question and the answers!! Is there a post in the “article and tutorial” forum that is a general guide for seed propagation the gives you the best odds possible ish ? I’m only giving JMs a try this year for my first time.

 

[sorce]

the best odds possible ish

The only certain thing is more seeds.


Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

100% of the genetic code of the parent is in the kid...

...Add to this that certain traits are dominant (such as brown eyes in humans) and certain are recessive (Such as blue eyes in humans) or even depend on multiple genes (such as hair color) .. it gets very tricky to grow plants from seed with very special characteristics as found in cultivars.

(1) Just to clarify your first point... there is no "kid". When you graft a scion or root a cutting, you are simply continuing the growth of the source material, albeit on new roots (either their own new roots, or the roots of a host). Some people like to think of them as "clones" but even that definition is not exactly correct. There is no different between the source plant and the cutting because they are the SAME PLANT. For example, there are millions of Valencia orange trees out there. They are ALL parts of the same tree People take a scion, graft it, let it grow for several years, then take a scion off that material, graft it, let it grow... ad infinitum.

(2) And to add on your second point, there is also a degree of genetic variability in the source material. One reason why there are so many cultivars of Japanese Maple is due to innate genetic instability of the species. When people say that Japanese Maples will not seed true - they mean it for wild green maples as well Take two wild green Japanese maples and cross-pollinate them, and the offspring will be all over the place genetically - some taller, some shorter, some with different leaf shape, some with different leaf color, etc. Because of this inherent genetic variability, it becomes much easier to select seedlings that show interesting characteristics and replicate them as a cultivar. I think people are of the opinion that you can't get beautiful, colorful, interesting Japanese maples from seed. Nothing could be further from the truth. You just can't claim that a cultivar seeds true. Take two cool JM cultivars, cross pollinate them, and for all you know of the thousands of seedlings you could get some that are better than either of the parents. I've seen some amazing non-descript Japanese maples out there that look every bit as beautiful as many named cultivars... just due to natural genetic variability. Of course that means you have to grow lots and lots of Japanese maples and know what you're looking for

 

[Sean Walker]

The only certain thing is more seeds.


Sorce

I hopefully have that covered