Collecting Pines in the wild

[tangledtanuki]

I'm over in Israel so I guess the closest area would be California over in the states although we have quite a bit of humidity over here. The status quo here is to collect tree in winter, Dec-Feb. I have been listening to podcasts about collecting pines during the summer and wondering what the best way to go forward is. Pines are difficult to collect as it is but having found some pines on pockets I was wondering when the best time of the year would be to collect. I'm not looking for a month but based on what the tree would be doing here or somewhere similar. We have hot dry summers so it would be interesting to know if this was actually a good time to go and collect pines.

 

[sorce]

I reckon there would be some benefit to removing it from a place when it is hot and dry and giving it water.

Always collect the worst ones first for tests.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

My summer repots always end up in disaster, so I'm not a big advocate of summer collecting.
In spring, before they enter the growing season or in fall before the deciduous trees start changing color seems to be the best time for me.

 

[tangledtanuki]

I reckon there would be some benefit to removing it from a place when it is hot and dry and giving it water.

Always collect the worst ones first for tests.

Sorce

Is this to give the tree more time to recover. From what I understand Pines get there strength from the roots so I can see how maybe before the serious summer heat here and maybe after a first flush of cones pushing collecting could still be done. I am just worried about after care in the heat. Other than placing them in the shade maybe and giving them water, anything else you would recommend. I put all yamadori into pumice so this will be the same here.

 

[sorce]

I wouldn't place them in the shade, keeping the rootzone cool would be beneficial, perhaps utilizing some other potted companions, marigolds, basil, to shade the pot could keep it regenerating roots.

A shaded top will just prevent root growth.

The way I see it, as you describe the situation, the tree will be utilizing a "dormancy" method of sorts to make it through the dry period. I imagine this would be the very same time it naturally, upon receiving water again, enters a period of cross talk where the roots tell the top where to send resources to, as dry seasons will inevitably render parts more useful than others.

I believe the only key to repotting is paying attention to these crucial periods of natural cross talk.

You potting it, before it receives water again, will allow it to allocate resources to remaining places.

You are essentially "killing" what it would normally keep, the deep wetter stuff. I reckon it would normally abandon far surface roots, as a mechanism to provide future mulch for future roots.

I think winter presents the same situation.

My winter is more extreme so I Repot in summer.
If your winter is less extreme, it may be better.

So long as we collect before cross talk begins.

I reckon regenerating cross talk is one of the most demanding moves on a tree.

Sorce

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Interesting question . Living in the north where winters are extreme cold . So trees go dormant as a survival tactic from what they . Perceive as a dry period . Frozen water is difficult to access and use . When it warms up in spring tree gas access to water and light . Is the traditional time to collect . You give the tree it’s natural time to grow to recover from the shock. Tree outs out new vegetative growth . To convert the sun into energy to grow . Therefore producing new roots . A second annual smaller dormancy happens in the heat of summer . The tree shuts down to save water . The ground is drying . And leaves transpire at a greater rate . So it shuts down . Again for survival some people collect at the end of this period . As the tree wakes up and grows mainly tissue . And prepares for challenge if the dry winter . So general opinion is collect trees . As they start to griow after a dormancy . So I would not collect in the heat of your dry summer . You are damaging the most critical part . The roots in there toughest time . I normally collect in spring . My thinking is give the tree max time to recover . Before the max dormancy or dry time . Winter here . So I would try collecting there at end of dry summer . Tree has nice cool moist mild winter . Low demand on roots for water . Then a spring to grow . Before the high heat dry summer . I think spring collecting there . Would be like fall collecting here . Can be good but I don’t like the shirt recovery time before the worst dry time . Especially for trees we want that grow slowly and or stunted and old from harsh conditions . That are slower to recover .

 

[BrianBay9]

My experience in Colorado and California......collect when dormant. I've had success in the fall around first snows in the mountains, and spring as soon as roads are passable again when snow melts. Finding trees growing in stone pockets greatly increases the chance of survival. All the roots are contained in a small space. If it's not locked into cracks in the stone, these trees can be removed with root ball intact by clipping a couple of support roots. Best trees can be collected in 15 min or so.

Aftercare - keep out of intense sunlight during the hottest parts of the day (morning and evening sun). Mist often. Don't work on the tree until it tells you it's ready - strong growth again. That could be a couple of years.

 

[ShadyStump]

All I can say is where I've failed, because I haven't succeeded with pines yet.

I used to go with the late summer/fall collecting, but then they don't look dead until summer, so you never know if it was something you did in collection or the winter that killed it. I'm going over to late winter/spring collecting. Theoretically, it should still have enough energy stored to bud, which will help it grow new roots as well.
Whatever you do, don't bare root it when you dig. Get as much of the native soil it's used to as you can with the root ball, then fill in all around with your bonsai soil.
After collecting, put it somewhere with full sun all morning, but shade in the afternoon when it's hottest. Watering just it gets the that point may help keep the pot and roots cooler.
In small pots, they like much more water than you might think.

I hope my failures lead to your success.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

As I said in my answer . Fall collection I can see working in warm milder climate . After heat of summer dormancy . And I know some collect here at that time . I’ve never collected pine . Spring here after largest dormancy seems to make the most sense . Fall with shorter time to recover before the harshness of winter seems risky . So I agree with you . I’ve never understood the logic of fall in the north . What does it gain over spring I’m planning to try bottom heat . In winter after spring collect . Idea is cold hardy tree in dormancy in cold ambient temp . But pot warmed above freezing . Even in dormancy there is some belief roots still grow .

 

[Attmos]

I wouldn't place them in the shade, keeping the rootzone cool would be beneficial, perhaps utilizing some other potted companions, marigolds, basil, to shade the pot could keep it regenerating roots.

A shaded top will just prevent root growth.

The way I see it, as you describe the situation, the tree will be utilizing a "dormancy" method of sorts to make it through the dry period. I imagine this would be the very same time it naturally, upon receiving water again, enters a period of cross talk where the roots tell the top where to send resources to, as dry seasons will inevitably render parts more useful than others.

I believe the only key to repotting is paying attention to these crucial periods of natural cross talk.

You potting it, before it receives water again, will allow it to allocate resources to remaining places.

You are essentially "killing" what it would normally keep, the deep wetter stuff. I reckon it would normally abandon far surface roots, as a mechanism to provide future mulch for future roots.

I think winter presents the same situation.

My winter is more extreme so I Repot in summer.
If your winter is less extreme, it may be better.

So long as we collect before cross talk begins.

I reckon regenerating cross talk is one of the most demanding moves on a tree.

Sorce

I just learned about the "moss slurry" process for creating a layer of moss on top of the substrate. They say moss works to break down the soil for it's nutrients by adding beneficial microbial populations.

Ever try anything like this?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I just learned about the "moss slurry" process for creating a layer of moss on top of the substrate. They say moss works to break down the soil for it's nutrients by adding beneficial microbial populations.

Ever try anything like this?

Yes, tried and denied. It works in certain climates, but not mine. Once summer starts, the slurry dries up to a cake before moss was able to form. Then it stays caked until three years later when moss shows up on its own in winter.
A little dash (tablespoon) of corn syrup or molasses works way better.

 

[Attmos]

Yes, tried and denied. It works in certain climates, but not mine. Once summer starts, the slurry dries up to a cake before moss was able to form. Then it stays caked until three years later when moss shows up on its own in winter.
A little dash (tablespoon) of corn syrup or molasses works way better.

Ok, cool, thanks. But the notion of encouraging moss has merit right? ..or is that also internet nonsense? lol

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I like moss because it keeps the soil in place and it provides a good microbiome condition. Or actually, the more fungi I have in my soil, the better the moss grows. It's more like that than the other way around.
I always know my mycorrhizae are growing wild if the moss shows up. Usually two years after a repot. But in wildly fungal soils within weeks.

 

[Attmos]

I like moss because it keeps the soil in place and it provides a good microbiome condition. Or actually, the more fungi I have in my soil, the better the moss grows. It's more like that than the other way around.
I always know my mycorrhizae are growing wild if the moss shows up. Usually two years after a repot. But in wildly fungal soils within weeks.

Ok... how to do I promote mycorrhizae growth?
Don't worry, lol, I'll do some reading on my own, I appreciate the direction.

 

[Attmos]

I like moss because it keeps the soil in place and it provides a good microbiome condition. Or actually, the more fungi I have in my soil, the better the moss grows. It's more like that than the other way around.
I always know my mycorrhizae are growing wild if the moss shows up. Usually two years after a repot. But in wildly fungal soils within weeks.

First of all I need to wait for the chlorine to evaporate from city water...

Ironic because I do this for water I drink, but haven't done it for my plants.

 

[rockm]

Myc shows up in my trees without any moss. Has for 30 years. No special treatment . I may be lucky but I water trees straight from the tap. Trying to encourage it can be a distraction and not all that necessary.IMO of course. The bullet proof method of establishing it is to get a soil sample from a pine that already has it and incorporating that soil into the soil in your pot. People do that routinely at repotting time. There is probably myc already accompanying the root mass on collected trees. It will establish itself mostly in spite of efforts to actively encourage it.

I don’t really encourage or discourage moss either. It is what it is. What it mostly is,, to me anyway, iis a sign of lack of drainage in the underlying soil. Also it can be a distraction. Grow moss or grow the tree. Trying to cater to both can complicate care for both.

 

[Attmos]

Myc shows up in my trees without any moss. Has for 30 years. No special treatment . I may be lucky but I water trees straight from the tap. Trying to encourage it can be a distraction and not all that necessary.IMO of course. The bullet proof method of establishing it is to get a soil sample from a pine that already has it and incorporating that soil into the soil in your pot. People do that routinely at repotting time. There is probably myc already accompanying the root mass on collected trees. It will establish itself mostly in spite of efforts to actively encourage it.

I don’t really encourage or discourage moss either. It is what it is. What it mostly is,, to me anyway, iis a sign of lack of drainage in the underlying soil. Also it can be a distraction. Grow moss or grow the tree. Trying to cater to both can complicate care for both.