Collecting Northern Hackberry

[davetree]

I have heard a lot about American Hackberry being a good bonsai subject. Apparently they are difficult to find in Minnesota where I am at. However, I grew up in the Minnesota River valley in the western part of the state, and as a kid I remember my dad complaining about hackberry growing all over in the creek valley by our home. I am going to try to collect some this spring. Does anyone have any experience with this species ? Any advice ? I know there is at least one other member looking to collect these as well. Thanks for your replies.

 

[crust]

I have heard a lot about American Hackberry being a good bonsai subject. Apparently they are difficult to find in Minnesota where I am at. However, I grew up in the Minnesota River valley in the western part of the state, and as a kid I remember my dad complaining about hackberry growing all over in the creek valley by our home. I am going to try to collect some this spring. Does anyone have any experience with this species ? Any advice ? I know there is at least one other member looking to collect these as well. Thanks for your replies.

Dave I want MN Hackberry too! and have been poking around on them for some time. I called a couple MN foresters about them but really got no where. Please let your fellow Minnesotan know when you are going so I can tag along. I have learned that most of the best contained hacks I have been shown are of a Southern variety and are some what different and obviously not around our state. Celtis occidentalis is ours. I also checked into horticultural varieties--Oahe, Magnifica,Prairie Sentinel, Prairie Pride, and Chicago land had the best reputations--well, for shade trees. I understand overall the Genus is fairly variable. I wish there was a Celtis occidentalis 'el contorta bizzarro' or a Celtis occidentalis 'micro folio huge-a-trunkous'---anyway, call me if your going digging, I'll be there.

 

[Gene Deci]

A few years ago I collected a Celtis occidentalis from near Fort Smith Arkansas. My "Michigan Trees" book lists them as native but I have never seen one in Northern MI - at least not that I know of. In any case, I left it out the first winter and all the branches that were not covered with snow died. It could have been a more painful lesson though. I probably would have pruned it similarly that spring myself. Since then, I have been more careful with winter protection and it has thrived. They are a great species for bonsai because of the small leaves and the wonderful ramification. Be careful when you prune however. It tends to leave big ugly knobs where it heals over.

 

[JPhillips]

We have them all over here in Nebraska but I think they thin out substantially farther north. There is one by a cattle gate that I have my eye on for spring so hopefully I can learn something here too. The bark is just stunning and like Gene Deci said, the ramification and leaf reduction equally so.

I'm wondering how well they respond to collection as many that I have seen are suckers off of a larger tree. I'm also hoping to try some air-layers to obtain trunks with movement as most of the trees here are arrow straight.

I realize this probably doesn't help you much but felt compelled to chime in.

Best regards,
Jake Phillips

 

[Gene Deci]

There is one by a cattle gate that I have my eye on for spring so hopefully I can learn something here too. Jake Phillips

Probably just coincidence but the one I got was growing near a cattle gate (or grate - the things cattle won't walk on?) also.

 

[JPhillips]

Gene- Cattle make the best yamadori in Nebraska. There are some exceptions but at least in the eastern third there are few trees worth collecting. But back to the Celtis. Did it recover relatively quickly from collection? Any other nuggets of wisdom or observations would be great.

Thanks,
Jake Phillips

 

[davetree]

I am going to scout some territory in early spring weather permitting. If I can find some I will let you know, Crust.

 

[crust]

I am going to scout some territory in early spring weather permitting. If I can find some I will let you know, Crust.

Sounds perfect! I am even interested in some runty stuff to grow out in a bed--getting the Northern genes is valuable to me--unless of course one find stumpy things or nibbled or mashed things--that would be cool. Anyway I will keep my ear to the ground and THANKS Davetree.

 

[Gene Deci]

It was dug in early spring and it did just fine that first summer - if not vigorous, at least healthy. It had a surprisingly big root ball with bigger, longer roots than I expected. I left a lot of the original soil on it that first year. It took me awhile to get the roots reduced enough to fit in a pot. The larger branches are impossible to wire. Even a pencil sized branch is too stiff and brittle. I use a combination of "clip and grow" and guy wires which works just as well.

Other than winter protection I have not treated any differently than my other deciduous trees, which are all more northern species. Same soil, plenty of sun etc. I think they are pretty forgiving. That is the only one I have ever done though, so I do not know how common my experience is. If I remember, I will post a picture this spring. I don't have one now and the tree is put away for the winter.

 

[JPhillips]

Any problems with those ugly leaf galls?

 

[Gene Deci]

Any problems with those ugly leaf galls?

Not really. Those are usually insect related. We may not have the right bugs here.

 

[davetree]

An interesting fact: this tree has been reclassified after genetic testing. It's closest relatives are now marijuana and hops. It's true I swear.

 

[davetree]

All hackberries, that is, not just the northern one.

 

[rockm]

Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't mean its closely-related or even distantly related to marijuana. The classification system being used is obtuse. ALL flowering plants in it are classified in the Magnoliidae, which doesn't make a cherry tree a magnolia...

 

[davetree]

Apparently they share a common ancestor so Celtis is more closely related to hops and cannabis than say, a similar tree, like elm. I wasn't planning on smoking it.

 

[rockm]

Um, not really. The whole taxonomy thing can be extremely misleading if taken at face value. A common ancestor doesn't make a relationship close...

 

[JPhillips]

It's still listed as being in the Ulmaceae family (along with the Elms) and both hops and cannabis are in the Cannabaceae family. The closest they come is being in the same class as all dicots (plants with vascular bundles arranged in concentric rings). At least thats how used to have it.

davetree- Do you have a link to this? I kind of dig things like this.

 

[JPhillips]

I don't necessarily mind the switching of families as long as they don't switch up the scientific name we all go by. That's the point of it, in my opinion, is so no matter what language we speak a Pinus is a Pinus is a Pinus.

 

[davetree]

I think it does mean they are more closely related than to other trees. That's the whole idea behind common ancestry. How do you understand it ? I am not saying they are closely related, just more closely related than to other plants outside their common ancestor.

 

[rockm]

If you look at the chart , the cannabaceae is UNDER ULMACAEA along with the Celtidaceae, which means not so much that hackberry is more closely related to cannabis than to elm, but that cannabis is part of a larger group of plants that INCLUDE hackberry and elms.

Also see the use of "paraphyletic" in the definition of family Celtidaceae. Basically, I take that to mean that cannabis was just kind of glued on to the larger Celtidaceae class, just because there was no where else to put it and both were generally in the same neighborhood, or at least had no closer relatives.