Collected a European/Common Hornbeam

Fonz · Dec 14, 2017

These last 2 weeks I've been working at a construction site (I own a small demolition company) where the parking lot is going to be completely renewed so all the vegetation will be removed. Now there's this hornbeam hedge with a few nice looking trees in it. It would be a shame to see them go to waste, so yesterday I dug one out, put it in a pot and stored it in my van until it was time to go home. When I got home (it was already dark and it was raining) I put it in a better nursery pot with better soil and pruned it back a bit.

I know the timing is awful but do you think it can survive? If it does I'll leave it untouched for a year.

before/after

Tentakelaertje · Dec 14, 2017

Timing is not too bad, get more! Way more!

petegreg · Dec 14, 2017

Nice one, if you have to collect more right now, put off branch pruning to the spring.

Tentakelaertje · Dec 14, 2017

You've done a nice job in reducing it, but take off a little more of what you are not gonna use. My experience is that above = beneath, so lots of root reduction means a lot of top reduction. And be sure to leave no air pockets. Air pockets are deadly!

@petegreg why would you hold off branch pruning until spring? Curious of your reasoning

Maros · Dec 14, 2017

Reasonable material, good find. Timing is OK. Protect from wind. Should be OK in spring. Needs much deeper cutting back though.

Fonz · Dec 14, 2017

Thanx for the replies everyone.

Maros said:
Reasonable material, good find. Timing is OK. Protect from wind. Should be OK in spring. Needs much deeper cutting back though.

How far should I cut it back then?

Maros · Dec 14, 2017

Fonz said:
Thanx for the replies everyone.

How far should I cut it back then?

Hard to judge from photos only.

Think about it this way, to make it look credible its future final height could be about same as it is now. If you keep current height and add new apex wich will add 20 -30 % of height to the tree.

So, you have to look carefully on current structure and leave only those parts where you can start building tapering branches.

I would expect you will end up with 15-20 cm stumps max.

StoneCloud · Dec 14, 2017

nice tree and the base looks real good too from that pic!!!!

Fonz said:
Thanx for the replies everyone.

How far should I cut it back then?

That decision is easier made seeing it in person but from these pics I would think somewhere right above those lowest branches. Seeing other angles of the tree would help more.

It looks like it has a good amount of potential though! More pics!

Fonz · Dec 14, 2017

I'll take some more pics asap.

petegreg · Dec 14, 2017

Tentakelaertje said:
You've done a nice job in reducing it, but take off a little more of what you are not gonna use. My experience is that above = beneath, so lots of root reduction means a lot of top reduction. And be sure to leave no air pockets. Air pockets are deadly!

@petegreg why would you hold off branch pruning until spring? Curious of your reasoning

Well, I think now it needs protection from serious frosts and cold winds. My guess is leaving branches till the tree starts showing signs of waking up in spring would help to store some more sugars. @0soyoung please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Hack Yeah! · Dec 14, 2017

the smooth bark looks like a snake, nice

discusmike · Dec 14, 2017

Nice find

0soyoung · Dec 14, 2017

petegreg said:
Well, I think now it needs protection from serious frosts and cold winds. My guess is leaving branches till the tree starts showing signs of waking up in spring would help to store some more sugars. @0soyoung please correct me if I'm mistaken.

IMHO, winter pruning is not a good idea.

I worry about compartmentalization - the tree sealing off damage (CODIT). Cutting a branch exposes xylem, phloem, and cambium between. Living cells in the wood, for instance, inject part of their contents into adjacent lumens, plugging up the xylem at the cut. These 'plugs' ward off fungal spores from finding a nice home. A bunch of cell strands break loose in phloem tubes and seal them off at the sieve plates accomplishing the same end. Much of this is initiated by cambium die-back/desiccation, which ultimately generates an epidermis and seals itself off, stopping further desiccation.

These processes are basically all driven by enzymes whose activity declines rapidly as temperature decreases. Winter dormancy is basically a state of little to no enzymatic activity. Hence the tree is very vulnerable to infection if pruned/damaged. True, the spores don't grow until later, but the spores are where they shouldn't be, in among the living cells and, hence, will do their thing very effectively when it warms up.

You're right @petegreg, sugar is antifreeze in trees. But it is sugar inside living cells that keep them from freezing, not sugar in the pipes (aka 'sap') per se. So 'bleeding' from pruning is just a spring/fall thing of not much significance to 'prune-or-not-prune'.

petegreg · Dec 14, 2017

0soyoung said:
IMHO, winter pruning is not a good idea.

I worry about compartmentalization - the tree sealing off damage (CODIT). Cutting a branch exposes xylem, phloem, and cambium between. Living cells in the wood, for instance, inject part of their contents into adjacent lumens, plugging up the xylem at the cut. These 'plugs' ward off fungal spores from finding a nice home. A bunch of cell strands break loose in phloem tubes and seal them off at the sieve plates accomplishing the same end. Much of this is initiated by cambium die-back/desiccation, which ultimately generates an epidermis and seals itself off, stopping further desiccation.

These processes are basically all driven by enzymes whose activity declines rapidly as temperature decreases. Winter dormancy is basically a state of little to no enzymatic activity. Hence the tree is very vulnerable to infection if pruned/damaged. True, the spores don't grow until later, but the spores are where they shouldn't be, in among the living cells and, hence, will do their thing very effectively when it warms up.

You're right @petegreg, sugar is antifreeze in trees. But it is sugar inside living cells that keep them from freezing, not sugar in the pipes (aka 'sap') per se. So 'bleeding' from pruning is just a spring/fall thing of not much significance to 'prune-or-not-prune'.

Thank you for explaining, your posts are always gold to read.
Except of that fungal issue. My point is that deciduous trees store all the "energy" in all parts, not just in roots. When removed in winter, we can lessen these resources. But that's it a big tree, if protected well I hope you it'll be OK.

0soyoung · Dec 14, 2017

petegreg said:
Thank you for explaining, your posts are always gold to read.
Except of that fungal issue. My point is that deciduous trees store all the "energy" in all parts, not just in roots. When removed in winter, we can lessen these resources. But that's it a big tree, if protected well I hope you it'll be OK.

Few seem golden to me. This prior post of mine being a case in point.

Yes, I agree that energy is stored throughout the tree, but I think of pruning as just removing the tissue and it's stored energy (starch grains in the vacuoles of living cells). Hence, it doesn't directly rob anything from the rest of the tree - all energy is stored locally.

The spring effects of more roots than shoots still puzzles me, though lots of roots means lots of water to inflate new cells and maybe long internodes it seems that strong growth an long internodes must be hormonal. I've read a few posts claiming that it is roots making lots of gibberellins. It is an appealing idea but I have yet to find any scientific papers (Google scholar) supporting the notion. We are of like mind though that trees are not potatoes.

... I'm just being pedantic, I think.

Tentakelaertje · Dec 15, 2017

0soyoung said:
IMHO, winter pruning is not a good idea.

I worry about compartmentalization - the tree sealing off damage (CODIT). Cutting a branch exposes xylem, phloem, and cambium between. Living cells in the wood, for instance, inject part of their contents into adjacent lumens, plugging up the xylem at the cut. These 'plugs' ward off fungal spores from finding a nice home. A bunch of cell strands break loose in phloem tubes and seal them off at the sieve plates accomplishing the same end. Much of this is initiated by cambium die-back/desiccation, which ultimately generates an epidermis and seals itself off, stopping further desiccation.

These processes are basically all driven by enzymes whose activity declines rapidly as temperature decreases. Winter dormancy is basically a state of little to no enzymatic activity. Hence the tree is very vulnerable to infection if pruned/damaged. True, the spores don't grow until later, but the spores are where they shouldn't be, in among the living cells and, hence, will do their thing very effectively when it warms up.

You're right @petegreg, sugar is antifreeze in trees. But it is sugar inside living cells that keep them from freezing, not sugar in the pipes (aka 'sap') per se. So 'bleeding' from pruning is just a spring/fall thing of not much significance to 'prune-or-not-prune'.

Pete is right, cool post! So the best time would then right before the buds start to swell?