Chlorine-content in ferts....how much is worrisome in-practice?

[SU2]

My area bans nitro-ferts this time of year, I'd usually go online but I was basically out of fertilizer and after several weeks of *zero* fertilization (1st-time ever I intentionally tried slowing growth, couldn't keep-up with it!!), nitro-deficiency symptoms seemed to be occuring on some of the specimen that were growing quickest when I pulled the plug on their (absurdly-overdone)miracle-gro drip so I went and got what I could find locally which was a 20lbs sack of general-purpose 10-10-10 granules - 'Score!' I'd thought - til I got home and did a 2nd reading of the breakdown of the nutes and, while it contains what I was wanting (and had checked for @store), I found it also contained a nasty that I didn't notice & hadn't seen before, "Chlorine----10% maximum"....yikes!

How bad is chlorine here? I'm going to guess that "10% Maximum" means that it's 9-something-% chlorine (probably 9.999% lol, am presuming they filter-against it to beat that 10% threshold), anyways I was thinking I'd be able to utilize this very similarly to how I'd been using Miracle Gro IE in a way that Walter Pall would give a thumbs-up, maybe even tell me I'm overdoing it a lil, I was planning to use this stuff at maybe 70% of the NPK-total-weight I'd have used miracle-gro, factoring-in the release rate of course, but now I'm worrying that mega-dosing a high-chlorine fertilizer could be asking for trouble!

Thanks a ton for any insight into chlorine in fertilizers, if it'd help for me to snap a shot of the label I can do so but imagine the description suffices fine, I've already laid this on maybe 15% of my trees at the recommended-rate (1tbsp/sq.ft), stinks not having any practical idea of the break-down rate so have setup a few tester specimen that have mega-doses so I can gauge break-down rate and, if the worst happens, they'd become my 'canaries in the coal-mine' to let me know this stuff is proving toxic at high-dose! Also think I'll crush some up to further push the dosing, up to my normal NPK levels, on a few testers to see if the corresponding chlorine in this stuff becomes lethal at that rate :/

Hope everyone's doing well & making great strides with their gardens!!!

 

[parhamr]

I’ve never heard of concerns with chlorine content in fertilizers. I’m not saying this isn’t a problem, but since I’ve never read about this or heard people discussing it then I assume this isn’t a common issue with readily available fertilizers.

This here looks like a legit resource: https://extension.umd.edu/hgic/topics/chlorine-toxicity

So… some chlorine and chlorides are required for healthy plants. Also, chlorine contributes in part to control of undesirable insects.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

It is not the chloride itself but the salt it is a part of. The reason you get NaCl in fertilizer is because a lot of potassium (K) is mined as a salt as KCl and some NaCl is found with it. Because Cl is a monovalent anion it will mostly flush through a well drained soil. Salts are only an issue when you are using a soil mix that retains a lot of the water and dissolved constituents. This is the salt effect you hear a lot about. In some agricultural soils the salt effect can acutally make them unusable. So the question is how well draining is your soil mix?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A good fertilizer should have nearly no sodium/Na.
If you can call the producer or the seller, give it a go to find out. They should have a full average analysis.

But then again, nobody in their right mind would sell you sodium contaminated nutrients. That would ruin the business after the first batch.

Most K we get around here is K2O, so there's little chance of contamination by sodium.

I think you're good.

 

[SU2]

I’ve never heard of concerns with chlorine content in fertilizers. I’m not saying this isn’t a problem, but since I’ve never read about this or heard people discussing it then I assume this isn’t a common issue with readily available fertilizers.

This here looks like a legit resource: https://extension.umd.edu/hgic/topics/chlorine-toxicity

So… some chlorine and chlorides are required for healthy plants. Also, chlorine contributes in part to control of undesirable insects.

Yeah it's a high chlorine content, crappy landscaping-fertilizer (not meant for potted plants / no dosage instructions for it just for square-footage of yards or garden beds, I figured it'd be fine to adapt the #'s - the math is simple - and fried the hell out of some bougies & crapes I tried it on, also know of someone who'd used same stuff - on my recommendation sadly - on their outdoor raised-bed and also had the same issue)

While some is requisite I'm sure tap-water already has magnitudes more than needed, at any rate after some heavy reading on it today (and some amazing posts by @Leo in N E Illinois, @0soyoung, @GrimLore and many others from older threads) am beginning to think it's not a problem of "too much chlorides" but rather just "too much TDS"(total dissolved solids, my understanding is that we are avoiding high TDS because it hurts osmotic function at the roots) The symptomology of using this stuff would agree, for instance I've had bougies & crapes that were in the middle of a vegetative flush, mid-summer kicking butt, and even partial doses of this stuff caused problems (doses that would've had the NPK at like 5-5-5, very light applications) All I can think is "salt lockout"/too much TDS, due to the chlor-salts(and maybe more) present in it since, for lawn use, it should be flooding/rained-out well.

It is not the chloride itself but the salt it is a part of. The reason you get NaCl in fertilizer is because a lot of potassium (K) is mined as a salt as KCl and some NaCl is found with it. Because Cl is a monovalent anion it will mostly flush through a well drained soil. Salts are only an issue when you are using a soil mix that retains a lot of the water and dissolved constituents. This is the salt effect you hear a lot about. In some agricultural soils the salt effect can acutally make them unusable. So the question is how well draining is your soil mix?

Hmmmm....ok 1st, well-put!! To answer your Q, I've found my mixes have moved over the years to a quasi "orchid mix" for most things, for bougies I up the "non porous inert media" percentile (scoria, styrofoam, gravels perlite etc) but >50% of most of my containers is barks so while drainage is outstanding, as I have multiple screens and am OCD with the hose when prepping my "mulch-bark substrate", processing it to the point it no longer discolors water or leaves scent in clean water, so yeah the drainage is great but the CEC/'hold-on' of the substrates are also quite high (have found that these types of mixes, in 'grow bag' type containment, let me get fastest growth. I use rainwater at least 4-5d of the week to 'flush' my trees, and I use our hard water irrigation 2-4x/day however if I feel they're not getting 'flushed' enough I'll even add pH-Down to the plain-rainwater when flushing to really help 'clean out' the containers)

A good fertilizer should have nearly no sodium/Na.
If you can call the producer or the seller, give it a go to find out. They should have a full average analysis.

But then again, nobody in their right mind would sell you sodium contaminated nutrients. That would ruin the business after the first batch.

Most K we get around here is K2O, so there's little chance of contamination by sodium.

I think you're good.

I think he meant saltS not sodium (though it was his example, I don't think he was contradicting the "they're all extra, unnecessary salts" line of thinking) My understanding after reading a TON today is that TDS is probably as important to water quality as the pH (well, with both it's probably "only an issue when wayyy outta range" but optimizing is, of course, the goal!) My media has very very high CEC, commonly >50% bark nuggets (rinsed to the point of orchid-media-quality mixture, not just from the bag I really process it fully!) and then just inert stuff (oh except the tan sphagnum, almost always add some to the mix or as a top dressing, never in large amounts but I like it present always, have it in my mind that it's got special things in it beyond immediate physical properties we usually consider(CEC, water-hold, particle size weight etc)

 

[Forsoothe!]

What kind of bonsai is grown at this break-neck pace? I only fert enough to build buds for next year and otherwise want everything to grow small leaves, slowly. I find this thread hard to follow with a line of thinking that grows bonsai as though high growth and speed were enviable.

 

[SU2]

TL;DR since the full explanation may be hard to follow if the ^ above was, but I'm not growing bonsai that are in-refinement, my collection is mostly large, earlier stage deciduous broadleaf yamadori, I'm closing 4" chop-wounds and am not at-all interested in internode length (yet; this next year will see ~a dozen specimen start transition to their 'Refinement' stages and, at that point, growth rate / pot size /etc are approached differently, probably in the way you're familiar with if you buy bonsai that are already bonsai when you receive them

What kind of bonsai is grown at this break-neck pace? I only fert enough to build buds for next year and otherwise want everything to grow small leaves, slowly. I find this thread hard to follow with a line of thinking that grows bonsai as though high growth and speed were enviable.

Despite a seemingly negative tone I still Liked your post because it brings up an important distinction that, if missed, would definitely lead newer growers/artists astray!

Yes you're definitely catching a positive attitude towards maximizing growth rates, and it's important to note that this is certainly not something that is just all-the-time appropriate. My trees aren't in-refinement, where such growth would certainly not be wanted (you talk about building buds for next year, that is an entirely different horticultural-endeavor than me closing 4" trunk-chop wounds on 4' tall Bald Cypress)

I've got well over 100 trees, not one is in refinement yet. They're almost all yamadori, they skew very very large, almost all are collected deciduous yamadori wherein the initial phases of developing them into bonsai consist of "skeleton" or "structural" building, this is something you want to fuel (almost as you'd fuel the growth of a field of Maple seedling stock that were to be bonsai one day) Internode length is not on my radar (yet, I do think that 2021 will see at least a dozen or two trees entering ramification-approaches, with the appropriate changes to rootplates, nutrition etc done at that point, but right now it's about "letting branches run" so I can cut them back again, to develop taper while closing trunk & limb wounds)

I started collecting large ones a lil over 5yrs ago, and slowed-down (tried stopping, lol) acquisition a couple years ago when I had too-many. I'm in 9a semi-tropical FL with a nursery seeing ~80% of our strong FL sun. The specifics of how I approach "nutrition" for my trees, which is inherently comprised of substrate/water/fertilization, are explained well by @Walter Pall in his authoritative piece on feeding/substrate linked here (this is a must-read if you actually develop any of your own bonsai, IMO), and with a garden of large yamadori in-development phases, I'm finding that I am putting more & more pieces out of "first phase development" (ie closing of chop-wounds, finalizing of deadwood//trunking lines, etc) and into a middle ground with his "Hedge Trimming" approach , something I see as being sufficient itself to bring bonsai to completion or, if wanting to, one could always "bring a tree further" (I think Pall would say something like "Yes they'd bring it further if they want away from the Naturalistic, real look of trees; my method brings more natural looking results, hedge trimming forever is plenty" and he's right for the style of Naturalistic broadleaf deciduous bonsai, however for me I have so many monstrously large pieces that he'd term them "fairy tale style" and hedge trimming will work for me horticulturally, but only if done with a bit more precision, far too many of my specimen are destined for a final composure resembling Ume stylings, more than Pall's Naturalistic stylings!)

I'd be happy to elaborate on anything left unclear but hopefully that explained the reason I'm pushing growth. I'm also growing fast species, and in 9b FL, tropicals make up a goodly % of my collection (and then fast-growers like Maple, BC etc), it's not remotely the same as someone who's got a bunch of Junipers in bonsai pots that're already 2/3rds finished with "transition to bonsai" Put simply, internode length isn't even on my radar for 1 tree, not yet, looking like next summer will be 'the switch' for many and, yes, they'll see lower nitro, smaller pots etc at that point, that transitional point in their development

PS- Pall I tagged you because I do genuinely base a large portion of my approach on your writings (and your youtubes, don't want to leave that out in case ppl missed any they're all worth a watch) and certainly don't want to waste time, this is my best understanding of how horticulturally approach things when average specimen are things like 4' tall BC, 1.25' wide trunk bougainvillea, big materials like that need big nutrients & fast growth to get a "a skeleton/structure", some allow easy hedge-trimming but others have shapes and branch-placement that requires more careful cutting IE probably shouldn't use electric hedgers as you'd joked of in one video, but principles are still the same and so far as I see I don't change horticultural approach until I'm ready to start downsizing container volume..

 

[SU2]

Oh and, Re my original Q, I'd love some insight anyone can give into alkalinity, I don't mean "How do I get my pH below neutral?" but rather the idea of dealing with alkalinity separately from pH, for instance I add phosphoric acid("pH-Down") to tap-water pretty often and thought it was enough - It does get the pH in-line - but suspect it does nothing for alkalinity and have no idea how to approach that.. Would love a chime-in from @Velodog2 whose comment got me thinking this way:

I'll reiterate to have the alkalinity checked as well - reef keepers will have the ability to do this. It is important that it be below 300.

Definitely gonna stop-in & chat-up the local aquarium store, have a background here myself but it was 'predator fish' not corals so the whole "buffering//alkalinity, and their effect on pH & TDS" concept still eludes me

 

[Bnana]

Alkalinity won't go down by adding phosphoric acid as is doesn't remove carbonate/bicarbonate (or other bases).
But why is the alkalinity a problem? For most trees it's not important. For very acidophilic trees it can be relevant if your water is hard but didn't see one mentioned in your posts.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Alkalinity won't go down by adding phosphoric acid as is doesn't remove carbonate/bicarbonate (or other bases).
But why is the alkalinity a problem? For most trees it's not important. For very acidophilic trees it can be relevant if your water is hard but didn't see one mentioned in your posts.

True, because Total Alkalinity is a measure of the "strength" or resistance to pH change of a buffer system. Once the buffer system is brought to a favorable pH equilibrium for horticulture, it ceases to be a problem that "needs to be corrected" but the total alkalinity - meaning the resistance for pH to change will be there. It will show up as total dissolved solids of the soil water solution. The adjusting of pH by adding phosphoric acid, for example, will actually increase the total dissolved solids of the soil moisture. The new equilibrium point for pH reached will be stable, and resist change due to the total alkalinity. This depends of the acid-base equilibrium points, in this case between the phosphoric acid, phosphate ions, carbonic acid ions, and the carbonate ions and carbon dioxide, and the hydrogen ions, and the hydroxyl ions of the water. I last looked at equilibrium constants over 40 years ago, don't remember it well enough to do useful calculations other than the ones I used at work, which were for concrete, not horticulture. So my use of equilibrium constants was "plug and play" rather than rehashing from the theoretical principals

Point is, the adjusted buffer solution, in this case your irrigation water, will be at a higher final total dissolved solids once you have adjusted pH of the buffer system. If the TDS is inside the range of TDS the plants, here species of trees in the bonsai collection, can tolerate, no worries. If the tds has exceeded the tolerance of the plants, resulting in osmotic pressure trending toward water losses rather than water absorption, then you have problems. I am not sure what value of TDS will begin to cause trouble. I think it varies from species to species. Maples would be more sensitive than Junipers in all probability.

 

[cmeg1]

Chlorine kills biome...which gives leaves a break in making available npk and growth promoting nutrients so leaves can gain in brix.
Microbes make it too not just leaves.
Here is a ppm calculater and can google acceptable levels....watch out !!!google is not intelligent most times.
If near or at municiple sterilization levels?
Fck no!!!
Just figure how many of ur tsp or tbs of whatever you use are in a gallon and then devide ur 10-10-10? % into the gallon of water ....then use the calculater to get ppm

Percent (%) to ppm conversion calculator | number conversion

Percent to ppm number conversion: calculator and how to convert.

www.rapidtables.com

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Read this:

The Bulletin: Print-Friendly Article Page

Also be aware that contents are often expressed as oxide equivalents. So if it actually is the salt KCl it may be expressed as K2O equivalents. Don’t be fooled by the label.

Read this:

https://extension.psu.edu/programs/nutrient-management/educational/soil-fertility/comparing-fertilizer-materials/extension_publication_file

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@SU2 - I do not know what level of chloride or chlorine is the level at which plant toxicity begins. Chlorine as in swimming pool chlorine, is calcium hypochlorite, which releases free radical oxygen as it breaks down in water. There are several chlorine based ions, with different numbers of oxygen atoms that result in the process, each will have its own level of toxicity. You are in Tampa area, you have the issue of salt spray and salt water aerosols in your area. In addition the chloride ion you are concerned about in your fertilizer. I do know that in fertilizer some chloride ion is acceptable, as chloride is a necessary mirco nutrient. I simply do not know what maximum levels are acceptable. In figuring the levels acceptable in YOUR backyard, you also need to know how much salt aerosols you are getting from Tampa Bay.

Second item. I have read and studied Walter Pall's recommendations for fertilizer. His method works, for him, because in part he waters heavily, every day, in summer twice a day with clear water. The large amounts of water he uses flushes away his heavy handed fertilizer applications. If you water any less than Walter Pall does, his fertilizer system may push you into danger of over fertilizing your trees. He pushes it close to the limits. If you are having trouble with the cheap poorly balanced fertilizer with high chloride content, then you need to water more, or fertilize less or invest in better fertilizer. Remember with Walter's system, the water draining out of his bonsai pots is still quite high in fertilizer content. The lawn in his backyard is very lush, highly fertilized and I bet as you walk downhill from Walter's garden you will see a bright green lawn for quite some distance, as his fertilizer run off is significant. Much of what he puts on, gets washed away. I have not taken measurements, I couldn't quantify it, but he certainly is feeding on the heavy side, and I believe likely quite a bit more than the plants can absorb in a single application. Which means much of the fertilizer he applies, ends up running downhill. His response when pressed on this is "fertilizer is cheap", and his method works. Both points are true. And in the grand scheme of things, the excess fertilizer that runs down his hill, is not much pollution in the grand scheme of things. One can argue that small amounts do add up, the lesson of differential calculus. Little acts of pollution, when done by enough people become a significant pollution issue.

Lastly, I will repeat. Plants, trees, trees used for bonsai use nutrients in roughly the ration of 12-1-4 with calcium 12, magnesium 3 or 4, sulfur 2 and the rest of the micronutrients. Any fertilizer that is not 12-1-4 is NOT BALANCED to the metabolic needs of plants. Add to this if the nitrogen source is nitrate, then the potassium K needs to be close to the same amount as the nitrate, so 12-1-12 is actually balanced for a nitrate based fertilizer. Calling a 10-10-10 fertilizer balanced is left over bullshit from before the days of modern plant physiology. At least use a fertilizer with a higher nitrogen content and a lower phosphorous content. If you have hundreds of trees, you are flushing many pounds a year of excess phosphorous into your surface run off, that is going into Tampa Bay. Its a waste of money and it is pollution. Feed your trees more lightly, fertilizer in concentrations they can actually absorb, so the fertilizer water running off the trees after it has passed through the pots has less remaining fertilizer. The adage from the orchid growers is feed weakly, weekly. Meaning feed more frequently much lower concentrations. Many, high level bonsai artists use organic fertilizer cakes, this provides a small amount of nutrient available every time they water. This approach can be seen in the care of the trees at the National Show. Obviously successful.

So read and contemplate. If I were you I would consider moving away from Walter Pall's approach. While I will not argue with his success, Water Pall represents a minority of bonsai artists. There are many, many more high level bonsai artists that use a much lighter hand at fertilizing than that which Walter Pall uses. They too have success. Also read more articles on plant nutrition published for horticulture and agriculture. DO NOT RELY ON GARDENING BOOKS. Gardening books are pretty, meant to entertain, but are not scientifically rigorous. Gardening books rely on anecdote, and will often repeat "received wisdom" that is from centuries old gardening practices, and is not based in modern science. Read publications from you local universities, publications for agriculture and horticulture industries, not "gardening books for entertainment". Most bonsai books are "gardening books" and not science based. The bonsai techniques are fine, the plant nutrition information is often BOGUS.

 

[SU2]

VERY well put Leo!!!

Could you recommend any specific products?

And FWIW, the miracle gro I add to my hand-watering budget isn't heavy as Pall's but it's probably more frequent, I'll use 2TBSP of 24-8-16 miracle gro for 10gal of water so that's 2.5% nitro not much but I like to do that like every other or every third watering. I also add a ton of Espoma maybe every 5-8wks, basically as soon as I can't see it on surface I add more (it's these pellets of feather/bone/manure/greensand/etc) Then, my substrates....even though I keep particle size in mind, and rinse substrate like I've got OCD, I've been using a higher & higher % of organics as time progresses, am now using 50%+ bark pieces - like orchid mix washed-clean - in most mixes (and steadily moving my trees to screened/'grow' containers, I have bougies that are in such containers and tolerating 50% bark mixtures, although for bougies they do best in like 25% bark maximum after that it's too wet but they like things reallll dry)

 

[AlainK]

Give them massive injections of chlorine, they won't get any of those Chinese viruses !

Seriously now, keep it for the soil kitchen or the toilets, everyone knows that. I mean most people (I hope).

BTW, white vinegar, sodium bicarnonate, are much cheaper and as efficient both for cleaning and getting rid of viruses, fungi, fake news, etc.

NB : a daily intake of cider vinegar has proved to lower glycemic load, just like a quarter of a tea-spoon of cinnamon will reduce it in two weeks. Of course, although this has been proven by science (not the bible or the kuran or focksniews), it's not a medicine, it's a help for a healthier life.

 

[SU2]

Give them massive injections of chlorine, they won't get any of those Chinese viruses !

Seriously now, keep it for the soil kitchen or the toilets, everyone knows that. I mean most people (I hope).

BTW, white vinegar, sodium bicarnonate, are much cheaper and as efficient both for cleaning and getting rid of viruses, fungi, fake news, etc.

NB : a daily intake of cider vinegar has proved to lower glycemic load, just like a quarter of a tea-spoon of cinnamon will reduce it in two weeks. Of course, although this has been proven by science (not the bible or the kuran or focksniews), it's not a medicine, it's a help for a healthier life.

Is the ACV // diabetes-help link a conclusive one?

Will certainly second acetic acid and sodium bicarb, use both extensively (not so much in the garden though) both for house cleaning and, with sodium bicarb, personal cleaning (for instance just applied as a wet paste with wet fingertips, it is a far better deodorant than anything else, because of the changed pH, also for oral care as well although it may be abrasive so uncertain how enamel fares against it..)

Re chinese virus-- just outta curiosity-- has anyone run into anything about Event 201? With it seeming to wind-down now I imagine any scrutiny on this pandemic will as well, and I'm certainly not read-up on leading theories (and, obviously, this type of response was unprecedented ), I still can't swallow the line that such a gigantic social engineering effort was "for our safety", just can't think of any realistic motives for the whole mess, but that Event 201 symposium or whatever being public record, being so specific about 'coronavirus' and other specifics right before the Wuhan case was reported, is reallllly hard to dismiss as coincidence no? I don't know the 1st thing about the guy presenting that video but found the video's content to speak for itself, am just uncertain what to make of it :/....

[PS- lol Re 'focksniews' ;D They got pulled in New Zealand for a bit last year I can't tell if they got back on or not, from the small bits I watch it seems all major outlets are nothing resembling good "news" anymore, can't even muster a damn to give though because people seem to want such BS, they do it to themselves via Facebook/etc all day, so glad bonsai forums exist they're one of the only types of discussion sites I can tolerate online!]

 

[AlainK]

Event 201 : I don't have the time to watch it right now but I'll get back to it. There are many corona viruses, many of them quite harmless, like the common cold which is a corona virus. The British had a "common cold unit" that worked on it to try and find a vaccine, they gave up after 20 years of research without findind an efficient one.

A lot of scientists predicted there could be an outbreak of a new pandemic years ago. Not "twitter-, or facebook-scientists" , but serious people.

And with global warming (a fact, whether it's partly due to human activity or not), permafrost is melting in places lmike Siberia. It will release a lot of greenhouse gases like methane, and we don't know the kind of bacteria or viruses they can release too.

Happy New Year 2021 everyone...

PS : since I'm now 65, I could get a free vaccine against the flu. If there(s a flu epidemic, I won't have to be taken to hospital if it gets worse, so the medics can have more time and means to fight the Covid-19. Here, it's on the rise again. My Mum lives in an old people's home, and if in the "first wave" there were no cases, but as we had just finished lunch, she got a phone call : 3 people among the 70 residents have been tested positive, which means they must now all stay in their appartments, no visit, meals put at their door like in prison. But this is a very serious situation and what would you call a society that doesn't care a fig about their elders ?...

Those who don't know are idiots, those who know and don't do anything are criminals.