Chinese Elm, shohin from air layer

[Anthony]

Images are coming, bamboo hedge must be pacified.

Conor factor in - China South has a range of 100 deg.F to winter. As does Al.

That your tree has to be acclimated to England's, cooler temperature.

This is why you take root cuttings and test.
Not on the mother plant.

If it were possible test on only expendables.

The Chinese Southern elm is adaptable to a wide range of temperatures.
We have had them growing well since 1983 or so.
As well as root cuttings.

On our side they rest from Christmas until around mid February.
Must be by light/ shorter days.
I would not interfere with that plant until late spring next year.

The training technique is often grow 8 leaves and cut back to 1" [ 2.5 cm ] and go again.
Doesn't really need wire, just directional pruning.
We treat it like a dependable ficus.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[ConorDash]

Just keep in mind that like a maple, cutting between leaves does not guarantee budding there. It will just continue from the leaf nodes.
Keeping the leaves small is good. what it better is keeping the internodes short.
Thats where having a plan helps. What is the form your tree will take. Spreading oak? pine tree? wherever the tree takes itself? This is accomplished thru wire now. Those 1 mm branches are easy to train now, not so much when their 5 mm across.

You will never develop a good elm by pruning in the fall. Minimum is monthly and most probably weekly. You will be a slave to wire while putting it on one month only to take it off and wire a month later.

Alright, thanks for that info. Still finding it a little difficult to understand.
I quite like that it will require more constant attention, like every month. I think I do need to find some sort of design or idea to which I want this to become. I just simply have no idea at the moment.
I'm guessing there's not much use in attempting any kind of directional pruning or wiring now, as it is late in the year?
Not that I would know how to directional prune anyway (something I'll look up and research).

I'll prune the long shoots, just to keep them short, till I have a better idea of what I need to do.
I thought that the majority of the branches it has, would need to be cut because they weren't trained so they probably aren't worth keeping, as they seem a mess?

 

[Smoke]

would need to be cut because they weren't trained so they probably aren't worth keeping, as they seem a mess?

ahh boy.......

 

[ConorDash]

ahh boy.......

I really don't have a lot of experience here so it's not easy to understand.

 

[RickMartin]

I have to prune my sejui elm about every 8 days. It is just such a fast grower. If you want this tree to be shoin like smokes trees you need to prune constantly I want my trunk bigger so i keep one sacrafice branch down lower, but once the trunk is whwr i want it, it will be removed.

Rick

 

[ConorDash]

I have to prune my sejui elm about every 8 days. It is just such a fast grower. If you want this tree to be shoin like smokes trees you need to prune constantly I want my trunk bigger so i keep one sacrafice branch down lower, but once the trunk is whwr i want it, it will be removed.

Rick

Thanks for that. I'd be quite happy if it were half as good as one is Smokes. My trunk lacks taper, and it's branches aren't much better so it's difficult to really get an idea of something good. But I'm very happy to prune regularly, gives me more to do, better experience. Pruned some today.

My problem (among others) at the moment is not knowing what I'm pruning back to.. Why I prune a branch back to that specific length, why 4 internodes and not 6, or 6 and not 2 etc..

 

[Smoke]

I have no idea what the branches look like nor is it really necessary at this point. A pruning should look like this at this point.

When the tree rebuds, and it will, then allow it to grow about 12 leaf pairs and do it all again leaving a new stub in a direction you wish to move that branch in. Continue to repeat the grow and cut back all thru the year.



Hopefully this sequence will make it much more easy to follow.

 

[RickMartin]

Very well done Smoke. Pruning back to a certain number of leaves depends how compact you want the foliage. Triming back to a lower number of leaves will get you shorter internodes. That in itself will give you tighter foliage. I want my tree to stay small, so its a constant prune for me. As @Smoke said, if you dont prune back, branches will get leggy, have longer internodes, and thicken up faster than you would expect. Well he didnt say it quite like that, but you get my point. Dont be afraid to cut this tree back.

Rick

 

[sorce]

why 4 internodes and not 6, or 6 and not 2 etc..

I've been pondering this question a lot recently.

You always hear, "let it grow 6-8 leaves, then cut back to 2".

I am quite sure this is for final refinement And ramification.

6-8 leaves is enough to gain energy...
And the first 2 nodes are always the shortest.

........

In your stage....
It's gonna vary...

Some will be pruned for direction.
Where you are cutting back to a specific bud pointing where you want a new branch to go.

Others will be pruned for ramification.
Where you want to cut back to 2 short internodes to keep your forks tight.

In my experience....
This is anything but mindless work.
Takes a lot of study.

Often, when hacked real short....an elm will produce buds all around old branch collars...which will have to be removed, or you get Mugo like knuckle swelling.

Also....keep in mind that big buds mean vigorous branches, small buds are not so vigorous.
Use that to your advantage.

Also....please tell Smoke I said...

Nice Fucking Sequence!
How about Sequins on the thong!
A bedazzled thong!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

And ask him how the hell you are supposed to keep that one branch floating in mid air?!

Sorce

 

[RickMartin]

And ask him how the hell you are supposed to keep that one branch floating in mid air?!

Sorce

He doesnt..he wacks that bad boy off

Rick

 

[aml1014]

And ask him how the hell you are supposed to keep that one branch floating in mid air?!

Sorce

He doesnt..he wacks that bad boy off

Rick

Come on I think that branch really adds something to this tree!

Aaron

 

[Giga]

There ya go, a plan in place now make it happen.

 

[RickMartin]

Come on I think that branch really adds something to this tree!

Aaron

It will grow back or a new one very close to where it was

 

[ConorDash]

I have no idea what the branches look like nor is it really necessary at this point. A pruning should look like this at this point.

When the tree rebuds, and it will, then allow it to grow about 12 leaf pairs and do it all again leaving a new stub in a direction you wish to move that branch in. Continue to repeat the grow and cut back all thru the year.

View attachment 115768

Hopefully this sequence will make it much more easy to follow.

View attachment 115769

There ya go, a plan in place now make it happen.

Thank you for that Smoke.
So we are saying to prune back everything then? Cos before it was an option not to and just work with what's there! Lol.
I'm happy with any avenue, I've no will to do any one particularly strategy more than anything. That kind of virtual that you provided is what I always wanted from it Smoke. Thank you for thee info.

I've been pondering this question a lot recently.

You always hear, "let it grow 6-8 leaves, then cut back to 2".

I am quite sure this is for final refinement And ramification.

6-8 leaves is enough to gain energy...
And the first 2 nodes are always the shortest.

........

In your stage....
It's gonna vary...

Some will be pruned for direction.
Where you are cutting back to a specific bud pointing where you want a new branch to go.

Others will be pruned for ramification.
Where you want to cut back to 2 short internodes to keep your forks tight.

In my experience....
This is anything but mindless work.
Takes a lot of study.

Often, when hacked real short....an elm will produce buds all around old branch collars...which will have to be removed, or you get Mugo like knuckle swelling.

Also....keep in mind that big buds mean vigorous branches, small buds are not so vigorous.
Use that to your advantage.

Also....please tell Smoke I said...

Nice Fucking Sequence!
How about Sequins on the thong!
A bedazzled thong!

Sorce

That refinement and ramification is what lead me to say, what I said earlier in this topic about thinking this tree isn't at the stage ready for that.
I am very ready to cut all branches and start it over, it feels like I'd have much better control over its future design by doing that and a better learning experience for me.
I like this plan

 

[RickMartin]

There ya go..you have a plan, now execution, execution, execution..lol

Rick

 

[Anthony]

@ConorDash,

here we go.

Just in case you don't understand the Mrs. Dash silliness - http://www.mrsdash.com/

Hopefully it is self explanatory.
Good Growing.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

@ConorDash

also suggesting you try this vine / shrub /tree to 30 feet.
In China it's zone 7.
Bonsai pot probably 9 or 8.
Sageretia theesans.

Easy to grow, and better from a seedling as cut over this [ ] size don't heal well and the wood will rot'

We call it - Sparrow's plum
This one was found as a seedling as the local birds like the tiny plum.

Take your time purchasing a mallsai as there are 6 different types, some build trunks but not canopies.
Some build canopies but not trunks.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[ConorDash]

@ConorDash,

here we go.

Just in case you don't understand the Mrs. Dash silliness - http://www.mrsdash.com/

Hopefully it is self explanatory.
Good Growing.
Good Day
Anthony


View attachment 115910

Thanks for that. As the tree already seems to have a very 1 directional canopy and branch structure, I did think of windswept as a design. But to be honest I really don't know.
Yourself and Smoke are both giving me a lot of great advice and I do know, thanks to smoke, what to be doing with it now but it's the step that links these designs to my tree which is missing. It's as if I have all the information, from yourselves but it's the joining link between bits which I'm missing.
I would like to try the windswept design, I think it's very cool and more uncommon than informal and formal upright. Also as the tree is already going that way, it seems logical to try and go along with nature, as best I can (but adjustments made of course).
Thank you for the info,

I'll be looking for new material in early spring i think, I'm gonna really try and get a good number of material, of different stages and set myself on a lot of paths.
For now, keeping the ones I have alive over winter is my new test.

 

[Anthony]

@ConorDash,

the windswept, as seen in the drawing is factored to your root sizes.
What you have in your photo image would require the roots to be reversed.

Which is why the drawing is the opposite of your photo image.

Additionally, unless the leaves show the effect of being blown, the plant will look strange.
It is often suggested that the windblown effort be shown leafless.

With such a large root, to balance the plant [ look at Al's effort [ Smoke ]] the canopy would
have to be larger or the large root reduced.

Yes, Health first and good luck with winter.
Good Day
Anthony