Chinese elm seedlings

[vcnsiqueira]

Hey guys! I'm new to this bonsai world and this is my first post. I've been started in this fascinating world about one year ago when I moved to a house with a backyard instead of a small apartment.

I started some seeds os Chinese elms in the begining of spring, 9 of them sprouted and now I have these 9 seedlings with about 40cm of height. They are as thick as a barbecue stick and I am thinking if you could give me some advice about what to do.

My strategy was leave them grow and wait until the trunk gets a good thickness, then chop it and wait to the new growth so I can get some taper and maybe start to think about the first layer of the tree (considering a upright/informal upright project).

Do you think this is a good strategy? Any advice is welcome. Do you think I should do something to increase the growth of them? Am I in the right path?

Btw, I've been living in Ireland and the growth here is pretty much from march to probably September. It's always cold (never super cold) but it's never really hot here.

The seedling seem very healthy and beautiful but I suppose they are getting bigger than their thickness can support, so some of them are bending. I'm attaching some photos of them.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[vcnsiqueira]

Another question: do I try to give them some movement now or let them grow free?

 

[TrimmyWhimmy]

The time to wire movement is when they're still skinny enough to bend. Chinese Elms have very vigorous root systems. Best to check it each year early on to make sure it's not out of control/super ugly. Once the roots thicken it may be too late to change.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

Couple of things here.

1) I don’t think these are Chinese elms. They have way bigger leaves than I’ve seen on saplings like that. They look more like Zelkova to me - which also make great bonsai!

2) The long internodes indicate to me they might like to have much more sun than they are getting.

3) Staking them is a legit strategy and will help them stand upright and hopefully the trunk will thicken and support them.

 

[Srt8madness]

You can wire if you want a tree with more movement, or you can increase the thickness and get movement from chopping low and new leader going in a different direction. You seem to be on the right track, as mentioned earlier they can likely take all the sun you Gan give them.

Also, what's a barbecue stick? A long match?

 

[vcnsiqueira]

They are getting all the sun Ireland can provide (we don't have much of it here). They were living in a green house before because I have grown them from seeds and they were very small. But they are already outside for about 3 weeks and very healthy.

Unless I'm very mistaken, they are Chinese elms, cause I grown from seeds. I planted both Chinese elms and zelkova seeds. I was only successful with the Chinese elms. They had a label. Anyway, the strategy is the same.

I'm thinking about keeping the original idea. Let them grow until some thickness then chop it. I was just a bit anxious because they are getting bigger every day and I didn't know if cutting the ends right know would increase the growing speed. Wiring would be good cause I would be doing something instead of just observe for now. But patience isn't not an option in bonsai.

Any other suggestions?

PS: a barbecue stick is a stick we use to put meat or anything else in a barbecue like those in the pictures

 

[Shibui]

I suspect the leaves look big because the trunks are still quite small. I'm confident they are Chinese elms.

I am thinking if you could give me some advice about what to do.

You have already identified that there's more than one way to grow a bonsai. The reality is that no single way is much better than most others.

Wiring young is good but bends do not give us taper. At some stage you'll also need to chop to get good taper in the trunks. The question is when to do so.
Wiring young also carries some risk. Young seedlings are growing and thickening fast (even though it may not seem so) There's a very real risk of putting wire scars into young trunks, especially for inexperienced growers. On the plus side there's still a lot of growing which will should allow wire marks to grow out as they develop.

Faster thickening is usually associated with maximum growing which is also associated with plenty of root space. These appear to be in good sized containers for the size of the tree. Over large containers can cause problems so best not to go bigger this season. Planting in the garden will usually give faster growth than any container but also carries risk of larger problems. Probably better to stick with containers, a slightly reduced growth rate but much better control.
Apart from plenty of fertiliser, water and light there's not much else you can do for them.
It is possible to allow roots to grow into the ground through the drain holes. That will definitely increase growth but can also carry risk of developing 1 or 2 roots thicker than the others.

While on roots, Chinese elms tend to develop just a couple of thick roots heading down. That's not really what we want for bonsai. Early and severe root pruning helps redirect roots to more laterals. Developing strong lateral roots also seems to help the base of the trunk to thicken.
I would urge you to consider a full repot and root prune next spring. If you are concerned about doing this, just do a couple and wait to see how they recover. You can always do more the following spring.

My strategy was leave them grow and wait until the trunk gets a good thickness, then chop it and wait to the new growth so I can get some taper and maybe start to think about the first layer of the tree (considering a upright/informal upright project).

This is a good strategy for informal upright. Definitely put some of your seedlings through this.
Elms also make great broom style bonsai. They sprout all round a large chop so we can grow a tall, straight trunk then cut horizontal and know we'll get lots of new shoots that can form the main branches.

The seedling seem very healthy and beautiful but I suppose they are getting bigger than their thickness can support, so some of them are bending

Trunks that bend in the wind tend to get thicker. Staking them may look nice but seems to slow down thickening. If they need support try tying loose enough that they can still move a bit.

Don't worry that everything seems to be taking longer than expected. Bonsai needs time. Good bonsai needs even more time. I'd be looking at a 5-10 year project for Chinese elm bonsai from seed.
BTW there are quicker ways to get to good bonsai so maybe look at some other starters while these develop.

 

[rockm]

They are getting all the sun Ireland can provide (we don't have much of it here). They were living in a green house before because I have grown them from seeds and they were very small. But they are already outside for about 3 weeks and very healthy.

Unless I'm very mistaken, they are Chinese elms, cause I grown from seeds. I planted both Chinese elms and zelkova seeds. I was only successful with the Chinese elms. They had a label. Anyway, the strategy is the same.

I'm thinking about keeping the original idea. Let them grow until some thickness then chop it. I was just a bit anxious because they are getting bigger every day and I didn't know if cutting the ends right know would increase the growing speed. Wiring would be good cause I would be doing something instead of just observe for now. But patience isn't not an option in bonsai.

Any other suggestions?

PS: a barbecue stick is a stick we use to put meat or anything else in a barbecue like those in the pictures

View attachment 558941

I also think these may be zelkova and not Chinese Elm. Leaves are "wrong" for CE, but there is a lot of variation between the two. FWIW, there is a lot of confusion over CE and Zelkova in the bonsai trade, as CE has more import restrictions than zelkova and are labeled zelkova to get around those restrictions.

I know you grew these from seed, but that doesn't mean the original source trees the seed came from weren't mis-labeled and that error lived on.

In any case, both species are very vigorous and are treated much the same. Zelkova tend to have longer internodes and looser leaves than CE.

If you really want to develop them, they need much thicker trunks. That development is supercharged when the trees are planted in the ground for five years or so. They're easily collected from the ground when it's time. In small pots like you have them in now, development will be slowed to a crawl. Also, wire is not the best way to induce movement in deciduous trees, as it is for conifers. Repeated hard cut backs and regrowth generally produce a more believable looking deciduous tree in the end. Anyway some things to think about...

 

[vcnsiqueira]

Thank you guys! I will really consider everything that you have written. @Shibui if you see the photos again you will realise that I've already repotted 4 out of the 9 seedlings in bigger containers. These I repotted this last Saturday and I thought the same as you: repot part of them and see if nothing happens, then repot the others. So far, I think it has worked. Maybe in two weeks I finish that and they can get a bit thicker before the end of summer. We're not to long to the end of the growing season here, unfortunately.

I'll let them go free in the container without any intervention and see what happens in one year. I hope I have a bigger tree, still healthy and can follow my projects. Definitely will post some other plants I've been growing: I have some older zelkovas that I bought in a bonsai pots but repotted them to grow, some small cotoneaster cuttings, 2 cherry blossom saplings, about 5 small buxus sempervirens and one juniperus procumbens. Still have a lot to learn but I've been studying when is always possible. Maybe in the future I have something interesting to share with all of you!

 

[vcnsiqueira]

Hey guys! The saplings have grown a lot since I created the post. They were well fertilized during all the growing season and I did nothing but let them grow free.

Well, aI still have the idea to develop them into an upright bonsai.

But now I would say they habe a diameter of 1 cm. Do you think I should do something now? The autumn is coming here in Ireland so they will get into the dormancy in one or two months.

Do you think I still wait too long to do any intervention? Also, do you think I should and I would be able to get some movement by wiring some of them? I mean, the trunk has thickened so I really don't know I will be able to bend them now. Or I just wait them grow more until the trunk chop and them I worry about movement?

Here are some photos of them. These Chinese elms really do grow fast (I'd say the are three times bigger than the first post)

 

[Wulfskaar]

Looks nice and healthy! Mine's been growing for 3+ years and yours is about the same size as mine. You have a good start!

 

[vcnsiqueira]

@Wulfskaar I've been growing mine from seed. They sprout this April and they are now with about 1 meter height each! I've been fertilising them heavily, though.

I'm happy with their growth. But now I don't know if I try to wire them to get some trunk movement (if possible) or if still wait the trunk to get thicker before chop the trunk (which I'm gonna need to do anyway to get taper)

 

[Jrmcmich]

I’m guessing if you want extra movement now is time before they get too thick but as others mentioned can always chop to get movement. Could always try both methods to compare?

 

[Wulfskaar]

Wire: Not much taper in trunk. Might end up with S-shaped mass-produced Chinese elm bonsai.
Chop: Good taper development for a broom style.
Wire and chop: Good taper development and movement.

It's all up to what you want to do.

Could always try both methods to compare?

Why not do different techniques if you have enough seedlings?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

nice start. If mine, I wouldnt wire the trunk, Id wire that first low whip as your future leader now, and take wire off in decemberish. Use all the other growth as sacrificial growth to thicken trunk. Id do this with all of these unless you want a formal upright or broom.



Great job with the seedlings!!

 

[vcnsiqueira]

Thanks for the advices guys! In the picture below you can see some of my saplings. All the tall ones are these Chinese elms I've been growing from seeds.

I think I will try a mix of the techniques suggested. Not chopping the trunks now, though!