Ceiba Speciosa (Silk Floss) with only top branches

[777thSunRay]

Hi all! Been away quite awhile, good to be back X3... So I have a few Silk Floss trees (Ceiba Speciosa) Two of them have trunks maybe 3 1/2 to 4', 2-3" thick at the base, and only 2 or 3 branches sprouting from the very top. When I first bought them, they were pretty limp, and the grower suggested I cut off all but the top leaves. As a beginner at the time, it didn't occur to me that the tree might not grow lower branches in the future. Is there a possibility, that if I cut some or all of the top branches, that the tree will grow lower branches? On each there is a short set of branch growing straight up from the trunk, and 2 or 3 bigger branches growing out sideways from a bit lower on the trunk. So will any kind of cutting of some or all of these trigger lower branch growth, especially considering this is a green-trunked species? If lower branches can not be stimulated to grow, can I still condition these trees for Bonsai, and if so, how should I do so? Or should I harvest the branches as new trees, in my cloning machine? Also, I've got a few Ceibas considerably smaller, but in the same situation. Are these easier to salvage, and if so how? Thanks in advance!

 

[Tieball]

I would enjoy seeing a few photos as I am totally unfamiliar with this tree species.

 

[777thSunRay]

I would enjoy seeing a few photos as I am totally unfamiliar with this tree species.

Thanks very much for replying, and apologies for the late reply. I'll attach pics. The branches on top are the only, and there's about 2' trunk below the pic border. One pic shows the stem. It has what look like they could be cut points, or buds. They all look the same, though I really don't recall making so many cuts, so perhaps some or all are buds and not cuts (not sure if there are scars, since I cut when trees were very small) So I'm thinking that maybe if some or all branches on top are cut, then new branches may spring from these buds... especially since the trunk is actually green, I would understand it can photosynthesize without leaves. So let me know what you think! :thanx:

 

[Clicio]

Very difficult species, a native of South America.
The most impressive one is a famous Ceiba Bonsai from Nacho Marin.



I guess it works as a very big tree. Which means you will have to wait for a while.

 

[Maiden69]

yeah... I really wanted to do one since they are one of the few trees that remind me of my childhood, then reality hit and I decided against it. Not the easiest of trees for develop for bonsai for sure

 

[hemmy]

Is there a possibility, that if I cut some or all of the top branches, that the tree will grow lower branches?

It should. But I would go with hard chops in the active growing season. If you leave one long branch the others might not bud back.

So will any kind of cutting of some or all of these trigger lower branch growth, especially considering this is a green-trunked species?

They appear to be apically dominant, favoring tall top growth over short side branches.

If lower branches can not be stimulated to grow, can I still condition these trees for Bonsai, and if so, how should I do so? Or should I harvest the branches as new trees, in my cloning machine? Also, I've got a few Ceibas considerably smaller, but in the same situation. Are these easier to salvage, and if so how?

For me, large cuttings (3-8”) have rooted easily in coarse sand or pumice during the growing season. I don’t recall if I used rooting hormone.

In coastal SoCal, I had a large patio tree for a decade. Then later bought an 8’ straight trunk nursery tree (8” dia). Chopped it into many segments and the majority rooted and then sent out buds. The one pictured was the base of the tree, mostly flat cut at the roots and trunk chopped at the same time. It sent 3-4 shoots and after a few years of thickening/wound healing, I chopped it again. This time each shoot only produced one shoot and the largest branch also activated a lower bud.

The shoots appear to bud just above the former attachments sites for the first year leaf stipules (which can be hard to see on old wood). A bottom pic has an old one circled that didn’t push and the last pic shows the attachments from last years leaves. Ignore the squirrel planted oak. This one overwintered in the garage in Zone 6 with light. It was out of leaf until a couple weeks ago.

 

[hemmy]

One pic shows the stem. It has what look like they could be cut points, or buds. They all look the same, though I really don't recall making so many cuts, so perhaps some or all are buds and not cuts (not sure if there are scars, since I cut when trees were very small) So I'm thinking that maybe if some or all branches on top are cut, then new branches may spring from these buds... especially since the trunk is actually green, I would understand it can photosynthesize without leaves. So let me know what you think! :thanx:

See my post #6 above. You are correct, there are buds above these scars which were the attachment points for the leaf stipule. When the tree is growing strongly the internode space between these potential buds might be longer. If you are unsure where the lowest dormant buds are near your desired cut, you might try cutting above the lowest that you can identify and then see if more push.

They seem to take well to container growing. I think there are a few threads (find them at the bottom of the page) on Ceiba (formerly Chorisia) on this site.

 

[777thSunRay]

Very difficult species, a native of South America.
The most impressive one is a famous Ceiba Bonsai from Nacho Marin.

View attachment 484179

I guess it works as a very big tree. Which means you will have to wait for a while.

I have seen this pic, and I am in love! X3 (with the tree lol)

 

[777thSunRay]

It should. But I would go with hard chops in the active growing season. If you leave one long branch the others might not bud back.

Okay thx... what is a hard chop? So if I leave one long branch, you do mean that it will not grow back other top branches, correct? So then at some point in the future, when lower growth has established, I might cut back that one top branch which was left?

They appear to be apically dominant, favoring tall top growth over short side branches.

Do you mean the species, or these particular specimens, due to the lower branches having been cut early?

For me, large cuttings (3-8”) have rooted easily in coarse sand or pumice during the growing season. I don’t recall if I used rooting hormone.

You use fine pumice, correct? How would coir, sphagnum moss, vermiculite, and or perlite work? I have these all, as well as a cloning machine, if that'd do it for such a thick cutting... Or should I get the fine pumice or coarse sand?

In coastal SoCal, I had a large patio tree for a decade. Then later bought an 8’ straight trunk nursery tree (8” dia). Chopped it into many segments and the majority rooted and then sent out buds. The one pictured was the base of the tree, mostly flat cut at the roots and trunk chopped at the same time.

Forgive me, please explain 'mostly' flat cut at the roots and trunk chopped 'at the same time'... I am still somewhat novice!

It sent 3-4 shoots and after a few years of thickening/wound healing, I chopped it again. This time each shoot only produced one shoot and the largest branch also activated a lower bud.

Again, please elucidate, how the largest branch here triggers a lower bud... is the lower bud the little shoot coming out the side of the pot... or which looks a bit like a pretty weed?? lol

The shoots appear to bud just above the former attachments sites for the first year leaf stipules (which can be hard to see on old wood). A bottom pic has an old one circled that didn’t push and the last pic shows the attachments from last years leaves. Ignore the squirrel planted oak. This one overwintered in the garage in Zone 6 with light. It was out of leaf until a couple weeks ago.

View attachment 484223View attachment 484224View attachment 484225View attachment 484226View attachment 484227

These guys look really beautiful!!

So then, it can be advisable to make big chops like this? Is this a matter of personal preference, as far as whether you mind this kind of big severing? Or can they be somehow healed and grown over as well? In any case, seems like a method I'd like to try. Oh btw... are these bases 8" diameter, or circumference? Unless my sense of scale is off, I would guess circumference? Oh, and how on Earth do you cut such a thick trunk, and do you make the cuts at an angle? Once again, thank you so very much for all the guidance, and sorry for a million follow up questions! It's just that this post has been a great revealer!

 

[777thSunRay]

yeah... I really wanted to do one since they are one of the few trees that remind me of my childhood, then reality hit and I decided against it. Not the easiest of trees for develop for bonsai for sure

Well I've already got six, since I kept buying em during winter before last, because I kept thinking they were dead! lol So I'm stuck with em, guess I'll get some thick gloves, and heavy tools! lol. Two of em are almost as tall as me! (tho I'm kinda short lol)

 

[Potawatomi13]

I have these all, as well as a cloning machine

Perhaps you can do people with this? And pets? Must be mad scientist to work with such unfriendly looking tree.

 

[777thSunRay]

Perhaps you can do people with this? And pets? Must be mad scientist to work with such unfriendly looking tree.

Haha tragically this is simply an aeroponic device, as I'm sure you know! What do you mean 'and'? I would say subjects who are people or/& pets! kekw
In all seriousness, what I love about this tree, is that while it has all these mighty thorns, like a rose bush it also has beautiful giant flowers, even bigger than giant roses. And I would like to observe the silk release, like gossamer I'd imagine...

 

[Potawatomi13]

Rats! For certain very cool appearing tree. However not enjoying S&M need to avoid like plague.

 

[hemmy]

Okay thx... what is a hard chop? So if I leave one long branch, you do mean that it will not grow back other top branches, correct? So then at some point in the future, when lower growth has established, I might cut back that one top branch which was left?

I guess it’s a slang term, I meant cutting it lower near where you want the next branches to emerge (assuming a bud is present) and below any existing branching. You might be able to leave one branch if it originates lower and have it send out more shoots lower after a cut. But mine back budded reasonably well just be cutting off all the branching. But is was a very healthy nursery tree. A weaker tree might not back bud so profusely.

Do you mean the species, or these particular specimens, due to the lower branches having been cut early

The species.

You use fine pumice, correct? How would coir, sphagnum moss, vermiculite, and or perlite work? I have these all, as well as a cloning machine, if that'd do it for such a thick cutting... Or should I get the fine pumice or coarse sand?

It was probably around 1/16-1/8”. One cutting didn’t root and rotted. I like mediums that are sterile and free draining. Those might all work, but I’d use the perlite. You should be able to find pumice at a bonsai nursery (usually screened and uniform size) or cheaper horticultural pumice (not screened of fines) at a local nursery. Greenthumb in Lake Forest might have it, there store in Ventura carried Unigro brand pumice.

Forgive me, please explain 'mostly' flat cut at the roots and trunk chopped 'at the same time'... I am still somewhat novice!

When repotting, if it has been in a nursery container or large pot it may have several large roots that will need to be removed to eventually fit in a shallow bonsai pot. My tree had a thick tap root-like lower portion that branches to many large roots. I think you can cut above this, even if there are no roots to create a giant cutting to root. Or less risky would be to cut as shallow as possible but below the first roots. These trees don’t seem to develop good nebari (flared portion of trunk branching to roots and anchoring in soil for visual stability). I went back to look at pics and I probably didn’t repot at the same time as the cut.

 

[hemmy]

Again, please elucidate, how the largest branch here triggers a lower bud... is the lower bud the little shoot coming out the side of the pot... or which looks a bit like a pretty weed?? lol

Meaning that when I did the 2nd chop years later, it budded near the chop site, but below the largest branch it developed a lower shoot (maybe 6” below the cut on the larger trunk). No, that weed, is a pretty, volunteer Burr Oak planted by a squirrel.

So then, it can be advisable to make big chops like this? Is this a matter of personal preference, as far as whether you mind this kind of big severing? Or can they be somehow healed and grown over as well? In any case, seems like a method I'd like to try. Oh btw... are these bases 8" diameter, or circumference? Unless my sense of scale is off, I would guess circumference? Oh, and how on Earth do you cut such a thick trunk, and do you make the cuts at an angle? Once again, thank you so very much for all the guidance, and sorry for a million follow up questions! It's just that this post has been a great revealer!

I guess it is always a risk, but if you want a bonsai the chop has to be low to develop low branching. In bonsai we often use cut paste (sold by bonsai nurseries) to cover the cut, it is usually from Japan and supposedly has growth hormones or antibacterial/fungicide properties. The benefit is debatable, but I believe in some species it prevents the edge of the cut from losing as much moisture and limits the depth of cell death. In the Floss Silk, I used Duct Putty from Home Depot. A grey, clay like putty that can be smeared over the wound (much cheaper than the bonsai stuff). For trees that don’t callous quickly, I will use the Japanese cut paste with hormones or use regular rooting hormone prior to sealing. Looking back at the pic, my trunk was probably closer to 4” in diameter. But it has thickened quite a bit in 4 years. I think you can use this technique with almost any size trunk. I flat cut it with a good sharp hand tree saw (and leather gloves). Then take a sharp utility knife and shave away the rough saw portion to smooth tissue, which will promote faster healing. Flat not angled, you will have to eventually cut away the part above where the shoots come out anyway. I have not done that on some of my cuts in the original pics. Here is the tree and then a segment after the cut with putty. Apparently on this cutting, I used pumice and pine bark, probably because that is just what I had available. I wouldn’t normally use bark in my cuttings. The first chop was August 2018.

And don’t apologize, ask away! This info is scattered across books, magazines, and internet articles. But this site brings it all together and full of very knowledgeable people (way more than me) that enjoy sharing.

 

[Hbhaska]

Curious how this tree is doing