Brazilian Rain Tree: Pithecellobium Tortum or Samanea Saman

[Matija]

Hi there, I'm new to bonsai, and given my location, I'm thinking that growing a tropical tree might be a good place to start. After doing some research, I've decided one of the tropical trees I want to grow is a Brazilian Rain Tree.

During my research, I've come across two different scientific names for it - Pithecellobium Tortum and Samanea Saman.

For example, this link refers to it as Pithecellobium Tortum (https://www.bonsaiempire.com/tree-species/brazilian-rain-tree)

However, this link (from the same website), refers to it as Samanea Saman (https://www.bonsaiempire.com/inspiration/progressions/brazilian-rain-tree)

A potential answer could be, as mentioned in this YouTube video, that there are two types of BRT. One that 'flutes' (trunk flattens and forms interesting twists as it grows) and one that does not (the trunk stays round). Unhelpfully, the video doesn't mention what the two types are. I also tried emailing the guy in the video through his stores, and didn't get a response to that particular question (so I'm turning to you guys!) (

)

I'm sure there are several different species of BRT, which may explain the different names. But I suppose my questions are:

1. If there are meaningful differences between these two names/species (i.e. does one flute and the other not, etc.), and
2. Is one more preferred than the other for bonsai purposes

Basically I'm looking to buy some seeds and would like to understand the differences between the two, if any. Any help on this topic would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
Matija

 

[sorce]

Singapore!

Welcome to Crazy!

I fancy a BRT but haven't found the right one yet!

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

OK, someone has to stick their neck out. So, to the best of my knowledge, there may be variations of BRT, but I know of no known named cultivars. A named cultivar is a plant that has some difference; taller, shorter, different color leaves or flowers, etc., but still able to breed with the tribe. You might have noticed that the same picture of a BRT was on both Links. There are several Latin names because the world body that is responsible for naming plants has been in a state of flux for maybe 200 years, or so. Traditionally, the first person who discovers or identifies a new plant is granted the privilege of naming it. That created a lot of confusion because many things that look alike aren't related at all, and the converse is true too, many families or genus of plants have brethren that don't look anything like each other. Carolus Linnaeus, 18th century Swedish naturalist recombobulated the names based upon similarites in reproduction parts, et al., into a nomenclature that lasted 10 or 15 minutes before the scientists began to argue with each other about which belongs together or apart, and the rest is history. The prize is always the same: whoever finds a new one gets to name it. That's a big deal if you're a budding biologist (pun intended). For instance, there could be a tree named Forshootheii yo mama if I could find some teeny-tiny difference in a olddball tree or plant somewhere. Anywhere! Over the years, the budding biologists kept finding differences that qualify making this or that individual or group of individuals sufficiently different as to be a separate named species or genus and a nomenclature society recognizes that officially. I forget who's in charge of that, but once upon a time it was the Royal Society of something or other in Kew England and now I think different species have different societies that assign nomenclature for different genus because it is too massive a mission for just one group.

But wait, it gets worse! With DNA testing now, the whole system has gone from matching this or that kind of tissue or flower parts or other distinct characteristics to matching genes, so it can get even more crazy. The genus Phithecellobium included BRT, Texas Ebony, and several other Acacia as species has been recombobulated 3 or 4 times in the last 75 years and competing interests have applied new names to the point that non-taxonomists don't get in way any more and just let it ride when a Brazilian calls it one name and an European calls it something else because it just gets in the way of a decent conversation. That's the opposite of what was supposed to occur. We're all the way down to BRT here. This is, of course, is just down on the farm level.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

In reading the info on Wiki it appears to be two different species that happen to be located in similar areas and look a bit alike thus the confusion.

 

[Matija]

Thanks both. What I'm gathering from this is that it's not exactly straight forward.

I've been searching for more info (mostly because I've been trying to find Pithecellobium Tortum seeds, and they seem to be more difficult to source than Samanea Saman). I've come across the following, which adds to the discussion (without necessarily clarifying it!)

An article by Wigert's Bonsai seems to make reference to the story of Jim Moody bringing some BRTs back to the US, and them being initially misidentified as Samanea Saman until they were more confidently thought of as being Pithecellobium Tortum (also, I'm learning that this is an old name, and this name has since been replaced by Chloroleucon Tortum). I've seen this story of Jim Moody and his BRTs described in this way in several places (including the initial misclassification). What I take from it is that there does seem to be a distinction between these two names/varieties: (https://www.wigertsbonsai.com/brazilian-raintree/)

In a conversation on a forum a little more obscure, one of the posters (Marlon Machado) seems to list what are, to his knowledge, all of the varieties of the BRT (if this is true, then it's a lot). What I took from this is that he specifically mentions that the Samanea Saman variety is not great for bonsai, and notes that the Pithecellobium Tortum is the variety which is the most well known in bonsai. Maybe this is the one with the desireable trunk characteristics that we are looking for: (http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2628-brazilian-rain-tree-different-species).

Anyway, just thought I'd share what else I've come across.

If anyone has seeds of Pithecellobium/Chloroleucon Tortum (or, maybe I should just call it the variety that has the flattening trunk) that they are willing to sell, let me know!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Hmmmm.... I have type II and I think the pictures I've seen of @LanceMac10's trees have much smaller internodes. I'm sure it has nothing to do with skill. I'm not saying he doesn't have any skill, I'm just saying he has a tree or two that are nice. I don't think they're fresh bought, but I don't know how long they have been subject to his care. His wife could be trimming them for all I know. But mine have lighter green, smaller leaves than I have seen elsewhere and my internodes are very long and they will grow straight as an arrow across the room if I don't shortcut them. It was a nursery tree that a non-bonsai-wannabe guy had for I'm guessing ten years when I bought it. It had two trunks that may have been two individuals and had never been touched. It was particularly un-bonsai overgrown and he was shopping it around a bonsai club meeting, but nobody would touch it. It was in a ~5 gal nursery pot and he wanted to get rid of it. I offered half his asking price and settled on ~60%. I didn't do air-layers back then and just chopped the second trunk. That was ~2006 or so. I prune it hard once a year and repot at least once a year.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

This whole discussion is a classic example of confusion caused by common names. For example I know of at least 15 totally unrelated species, that are not at all alike that get called ironwood. This whole discussion could be avoided if one were to recognize that scientific names to recognize different species. Species is a well defined concept. Avoid the use of the word varieties, as varieties can have several meanings. In horticulture there is the concept of cultivar, or clone. This refers to one particular individual, from one seed. Cultivar is abbreviation for horticultural variety. A species is a group of similar, freely interbreeding individuals. A number of cultivars, or clones can belong to the same species. Cultivars or clones are in an ideal world, registered in a manner similar to trademarking or copywriting, the main registrar for cultivar names is the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew, in the UK.

So back to "Rain Trees", there are at least half a dozen species that get that name in South America, and several in Brazil. They are all different species.

Samanea saman is a valid species, originally native from Mexico into South America, but widely planted through out the tropics. It is often used for bonsai, but is not as popular as some other species. It is sometimes included in the genus Albizia, as Albizia saman. It is a unique, well defined species. It is commonly available from seed. It is not endangered. It is in some areas an invasive species. It is not related to Chloroleucon tortum at the species or genus level. They are both legumes, but that is about as close as a relationship as Tigers and Wolves are both carnivores.

The "other Brazilian rain tree" is Chloroleucon tortum formerly called Pithecellobium tortum, which is a completely different species. This is the species that develops the flattened trunks. This is the one that is highly sought after for bonsai. It is an endangered species in Brazil. It is on the UN Red list as Critically endangered. This designation makes obtaining seed from Brazil impossible. Living plants can not be exported from Brazil. The only specimens available are being propagated in nurseries outside of Brazil. Fortunately, Jim Moody brought his to the USA before the Endangered Species Act (the Lacy Act in USA) became law, (or before Lacy Act was expanded to cover plants). You will have a very difficult time finding seed.

The tale of Jim Moody bringing the Chloroleucon tortum to USA is true, and is a classic tale. If Jim had taken the trouble to ask a Brazilian botanist what species it was, he would have known that it was not Samanea saman. But like many "entitled colonists" had done in the past, he did not ask the locals who would have known the difference. It was not until somebody who was familiar with Samanea saman got a good look at Jim Moody's tree that Jim learned the name he gave it was all wrong. This tale is like the European who never saw an armadillo, finding one in Texas, and calling it a gopher, brings it back to Europe, selling it as a gopher, and until he runs into a Texan in Paris, only finds out then that his "gopher" was really an armadillo.

There may be selected cultivars of both species, but a quick glance at Kew's registry does not seem to list either species. So forget about "varieties".
They are two separate, unrelated species. They are distantly related, will not cross breed. They are just plain different.

 

[Matija]

Great info. As you can tell, I'm new to horticulture so this information is very helpful. And it confirms my suspicion that Chloroleucon tortum is the vari...err (joke!)...species that I should be looking for.

Although this also seems to suggest that getting seeds will be difficult. That said, I'll keep trying. Alternatively, if anyone is willing/able to ship a cutting to Singapore, I'll be happy to pay for the costs + effort.

Ironwood:

On a slightly different topic, @Leo in N E Illinois you mentioned Ironwood in your post. Are you familiar with the scientific name of species that are desirable for bonsai? The reason I ask is that I was also looking for Brazilian Ironwood seeds (which I believe is also commonly referred to as a Brazilian Leopard Tree). The reason I was interested in this tree is that I understand it may have similar characteristics to Chloroleucon tortum (in the sense that it may have a flattening trunk). In searching for the scientific name, I have come to understand that the scientific name for this species may be called Caesalpinia ferrea. I was able to source Caesalpina ferrea seeds, and one has since sprouted so time will tell, but if you are familiar with Ironwoods and are able to comment as to whether I'm on the right track, it would be appreciated!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Great info. As you can tell, I'm new to horticulture so this information is very helpful. And it confirms my suspicion that Chloroleucon tortum is the vari...err (joke!)...species that I should be looking for.

Although this also seems to suggest that getting seeds will be difficult. That said, I'll keep trying. Alternatively, if anyone is willing/able to ship a cutting to Singapore, I'll be happy to pay for the costs + effort.

Ironwood:

On a slightly different topic, @Leo in N E Illinois you mentioned Ironwood in your post. Are you familiar with the scientific name of species that are desirable for bonsai? The reason I ask is that I was also looking for Brazilian Ironwood seeds (which I believe is also commonly referred to as a Brazilian Leopard Tree). The reason I was interested in this tree is that I understand it may have similar characteristics to Chloroleucon tortum (in the sense that it may have a flattening trunk). In searching for the scientific name, I have come to understand that the scientific name for this species may be called Caesalpinia ferrea. I was able to source Caesalpina ferrea seeds, and one has since sprouted so time will tell, but if you are familiar with Ironwoods and are able to comment as to whether I'm on the right track, it would be appreciated!

I am having a small laugh. The point of mentioning Ironwood is that the common name, Ironwood is used for many, many completely unrelated plants. It highlights the need to use the scientific names.

Caesalpinia ferrea is a tropical tree, I live in the frigid winter climate near Chicago Illinois, where keeping a Caesalpinia alive would be difficult. So I have no experience with them. @Anthony a member here that lives in Trinidad recently mentioned Caesalpinia ferrea, perhaps he has more information.

The ironwood I am growing at my home is Ostrya virginiana, a relative of the hornbeams or the genus Carpinus. It requires a cold winter rest, and would not survive the warm climate of Singapore.

 

[Anthony]

@Leo in N E Illinois ,

I would have suggested a Google for images of both trees
and reading information.
Plus we have Brazilian members who would have these trees growing
in their backyard.

The Samaan can work at 15 cm if you get it very healthy and defoliate
3 to 4 times a year.
Difficult if larger.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[BrazilianMoistWood]

What are the noticeable differences between Samanea Saman and Pithecellobium Tortum to help one identify what their tree is?

 

[Forsoothe!]

They are nothing alike. ??

 

[jason biggs]

leopard trees have wonderful flaking bark and it doesn't take long for young trees to get this bark...
Growth rate is fast,,they do well in pots and have small leaves....
go for it.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I am having a small laugh. The point of mentioning Ironwood is that the common name, Ironwood is used for many, many completely unrelated plants. It highlights the need to use the scientific names.

Caesalpinia ferrea is a tropical tree, I live in the frigid winter climate near Chicago Illinois, where keeping a Caesalpinia alive would be difficult. So I have no experience with them. @Anthony a member here that lives in Trinidad recently mentioned Caesalpinia ferrea, perhaps he has more information.

The ironwood I am growing at my home is Ostrya virginiana, a relative of the hornbeams or the genus Carpinus. It requires a cold winter rest, and would not survive the warm climate of Singapore.

Don't forget the Catalina ironwood that is endemic to the channel islands of California. Some of the weirdest leaves you'll ever see.

Lyonothamnus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One time a friend tried to tell me that my "ironwood" was called that because it has extremely strong wood. He isn't very bright.

 

[Matija]

What are the noticeable differences between Samanea Saman and Pithecellobium Tortum to help one identify what their tree is?

I don’t believe Samanea Saman have thorns. Also, based on the SS that I see in nature here in Singapore, the trunks don’t seem to flatten.

 

[Matija]

leopard trees have wonderful flaking bark and it doesn't take long for young trees to get this bark...
Growth rate is fast,,they do well in pots and have small leaves....
go for it.

Four have sprouted, so we’ll see how they turn out! They are about two months old. Those are six inch pots.

 

[ibakey]

I was wondering whether raintree could be a bonsai and i stumbled upon this thread. Interesting indeed.
Do you think the brazilian raintree can be kept in Europe indoors during the winter months and brought out when its warmer?

However, I have yet to find any nurseries selling raintrees in europe! ha

 

[Carol 83]

Do you think the brazilian raintree can be kept in Europe indoors during the winter months and brought out when its warmer?

Yes. I bring mine in when nighttime temps dip below 50 consistently.

 

[leatherback]

Do you think the brazilian raintree can be kept in Europe indoors during the winter months and brought out when its warmer?

yes. They love it.

BRT afficionados, unite!

Seems like there are lots of people growing BRT on this forum. How about a place to put together out BRTs, and updates, ideas, experiences? A Brazilian Raintree focussed thread. Share and care!

www.bonsainut.com

A raintree at 52 degrees North

A few weeks ago I had the chance to join @Clicio to a bonsai show in Sao Paulo. On a cool spring day, we went to the botanical garden of Sao Paulo, and strolled through a show. My shirt was quickly soaked, because spring weather is 32c / 90F warm, no wind, high humidity. In any case, I saw...

www.bonsainut.com

Comparing size with Clicio

@Clicio has been bugging me that he wants to compare sizes and see whether you can get the same size in the cold north as in the tropics. To not spoil any threads with this big boys game.. A separate one. Clicio, here are mine. I am not sure when I planted the seeds. Was it 2018?

www.bonsainut.com

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I was wondering whether raintree could be a bonsai and i stumbled upon this thread. Interesting indeed.
Do you think the brazilian raintree can be kept in Europe indoors during the winter months and brought out when its warmer?

However, I have yet to find any nurseries selling raintrees in europe! ha

Check out Nigel Saunders “The Bonsai Zone” channel on YouTube. He is growing one in Canada. Did a good video this week on repotting them.