Bonsai Without Chemicals?

[JoeR]

While attending the Winter Silhouette Show, I had the chance to talk to Mrs. Valavanis who tossed some really interesting tips at me during our short chat. One of the things she mentioned that I found shocking is that their garden is maintained without any chemicals. At least as far as preventatives for fungi and diseases. She said that if a tree is ill, it is isolated to let nature take its course.


I found this surprising to say the least, as their collection is very admirable and definently one of the best collections in the country.


It made me question how this is done. I know it can be done, obviously the Japanese and Chinese managed just fine for hundreds of years so why cant I do the same?


She mentioned that airflow is a major key.


Im curious how many of you do, or do not, use chemical treatments?

And If you do use any, care to explain which ones and why please?

If you dont use chemical treatments like copper fungicides, any tips for a chemical free garden?



Thanks for any shared knowledge!


Oh the winter boredom!

 

[wireme]

While attending the Winter Silhouette Show, I had the chance to talk to Mrs. Valavanis who tossed some really interesting tips at me during our short chat. One of the things she mentioned that I found shocking is that their garden is maintained without any chemicals. At least as far as preventatives for fungi and diseases. She said that if a tree is ill, it is isolated to let nature take its course.


I found this surprising to say the least, as their collection is very admirable and definently one of the best collections in the country.


It made me question how this is done. I know it can be done, obviously the Japanese and Chinese managed just fine for hundreds of years so why cant I do the same?


She mentioned that airflow is a major key.


Im curious how many of you do, or do not, use chemical treatments?

And If you do use any, care to explain which ones and why please?

If you dont use chemical treatments like copper fungicides, any tips for a chemical free garden?



Thanks for any shared knowledge!


Oh the winter boredom!

This is the first time I've ever heard of a collection of such professionalism and caliber being maintained without an arsenal of fungicides etc..
I kind of thought all the pros deemed it necessary and foolish to go without.
Interesting.

 

[Anthony]

They should not touch each other, full sun and some breeze, and go dry as the foliage goes into the night. Rain is as the earth decides.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JoeR]

This is the first time I've ever heard of a collection of such professionalism and caliber being maintained without an arsenal of fungicides etc..
I kind of thought all the pros deemed it necessary and foolish to go without.
Interesting.

Its possible I misunderstood her? I mentioned I used a copper fungicide on my last kotohime and she said something along the lines of: Oh no he doesnt use any of that kind of stuff...he just isolates the tree...place the bench where leaves swirl, never where they build up...


@William N. Valavanis , could you please clarify if you use anything on your trees? I would greatly appreciate it

I do apoligize if I misunderstood her but I was pretty certain thats what she meant.

 

[JoeR]

They should not touch each other, full sun and some breeze, and go dry as the foliage goes into the night. Rain is as the earth decides.
Good Day
Anthony

Do you use anything?


I dont understand your comment about the rain, can you clarify?

 

[Anthony]

JoeR,

the growing down here follows Rodale [ can be googled ] organic farming - well made compost.
We have leaf cutting ants, that like the Gmelinas and Serissas, they show up from the neighbours yards, and are fed citrus peels with a scentless insecticide.
Once the queen dies, they are gone, but the nests are from outside of the yard.

Also brown grasshoppers, but the birds love them.

Had an aphid infestation in 2010 on a single Fukien tea, defoliated , scrubbed and some neem, they never came back, and the shrub is bathed everytime it is watered.
The ants that carry the aphids don't like that.

Other than that, nothing else.

The idea is that nature destroys an ill plant.

Compost and a weak nitrogen boost during the dry season, keeps the leaves green, growth stays slow and hard, not tasty to insects.Full sun tends to make leaves hard and unpleasant to eat.
Dampness in the late evening encourages illness.
Over fertilising makes for sappy, weak growth, very tasty to insects.
Hope this helps.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JoeR]

JoeR,

the growing down here follows Rodale [ can be googled ] organic farming - well made compost.
We have leaf cutting ants, that like the Gmelinas and Serissas, they show up from the neighbours yards, and are fed citrus peels with a scentless insecticide.
Once the queen dies, they are gone, but the nests are from outside of the yard.

Also brown grasshoppers, but the birds love them.

Had an aphid infestation in 2010 on a single Fukien tea, defoliated , scrubbed and some neem, they never came back, and the shrub is bathed everytime it is watered.
The ants that carry the aphids don't like that.

Other than that, nothing else.

The idea is that nature destroys an ill plant.

Compost and a weak nitrogen boost during the dry season, keeps the leaves green, growth stays slow and hard, not tasty to insects.Full sun tends to make leaves hard and unpleasant to eat.
Dampness in the late evening encourages illness.
Over fertilising makes for sappy, weak growth, very tasty to insects.
Hope this helps.
Good Day
Anthony

It does help, thanks.

Interesting. I dont mind using natural oils so much

 

[coh]

Interesting...I know in his beginner classes, Bill does talk about pesticides and recommends certain ones so it would surprise me if he didn't use any chemical treatments at all. Perhaps he doesn't use them as preventatives but will use them when a problem arises.

For me, I'll try to make do without chemicals as much as possible...for instance, I'll spray the foliage with water to eliminate aphids or mites, and I'll use oils or soaps as a first step against scale and some other pests. But...there are lots of problems in the landscape these days, from introduced pests (various borers for example) to diseases (various tip blights). These are destroying many trees around here, and have attacked some of my bonsai and pre-bonsai. So I now use fungicides (daconil and copper sulfate) on a regular basis on pines and junipers, and in the spring I'll be starting a spray regimen (pyrethrins) to protect trees in my growing beds from borers.

 

[aml1014]

I've never used chemicals other then fertilizer. If I have a big infestation I isolate the tree and use a heavy stream of water, if that does nothing I use neem oil. And I never use preventative measures I just let nature do its thing.

 

[JoeR]

Interesting...I know in his beginner classes, Bill does talk about pesticides and recommends certain ones so it would surprise me if he didn't use any chemical treatments at all. Perhaps he doesn't use them as preventatives but will use them when a problem arises.

For me, I'll try to make do without chemicals as much as possible...for instance, I'll spray the foliage with water to eliminate aphids or mites, and I'll use oils or soaps as a first step against scale and some other pests. But...there are lots of problems in the landscape these days, from introduced pests (various borers for example) to diseases (various tip blights). These are destroying many trees around here, and have attacked some of my bonsai and pre-bonsai. So I now use fungicides (daconil and copper sulfate) on a regular basis on pines and junipers, and in the spring I'll be starting a spray regimen (pyrethrins) to protect trees in my growing beds from borers.

Hmmm, I suppose she must have been talking about preventatives.


How often have you had outbursts or problems with pests and disease so far?


Only problem I have encountered in three years is powdery mildew on a few japanese maples. Not detrimental.

 

[JoeR]

I've never used chemicals other then fertilizer. If I have a big infestation I isolate the tree and use a heavy stream of water, if that does nothing I use neem oil. And I never use preventative measures I just let nature do its thing.

How has this worked for you? How long have you been doing bonsai?

Any casualties?

 

[aml1014]

How has this worked for you? How long have you been doing bonsai?

Any casualties?

It works fine for me, I've learned while working at a nursery most times it's best to let nature run its course. I've been doing bonsai for 3 years now so still very new but I've learned a lot, and as far as casualties the only things that have died were absolutely my fault (as in wrong time to repot, overworked in a single season, left out in the splendid high desert sun to torch) but no bugs have killed any of my trees still. I've only used a systemic once after a heavy bark beetle and scale problem on one of my pines.

 

[JoeR]

It works fine for me, I've learned while working at a nursery most times it's best to let nature run its course. I've been doing bonsai for 3 years now so still very new but I've learned a lot, and as far as casualties the only things that have died were absolutely my fault (as in wrong time to repot, overworked in a single season, left out in the splendid high desert sun to torch) but no bugs have killed any of my trees still. I've only used a systemic once after a heavy bark beetle and scale problem on one of my pines.

Thansk for sharing, your situation is similar to mine. Only casualties were completely my fault.

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, location, region, micro-climate all play a role. I had practiced bonsai in the Northeast for a decade without ever having an issue with juniper blight, cedar-apple rust, or spider mites. I moved to GA 6 years ago and haven't had a growing season since where both mites, rusts and blights haven't been an issue. Same collection, different region...different pests. Another fwiw... if I let nature take it's course when spider mites rear their ugly heads every spring on my junipers....I wouldn't have any junipers come the fall.

 

[coh]

"Let nature take its course" sounds great, until nature starts taking its course with trees that you've spent years developing.

Hmmm, I suppose she must have been talking about preventatives.
How often have you had outbursts or problems with pests and disease so far?
Only problem I have encountered in three years is powdery mildew on a few japanese maples. Not detrimental.

Biggest problems I've had have been with tip blight on pines (thus daconil and copper), tip moths on pines (mostly ponderosa) and spruce (bayer systemic), pine scale (again bayer), and scale on tropicals during the winter (mechanical removal and bayer). Tip blight is something that you cannot treat once it has developed, so I now use fungicides as preventatives. Same with the tip moths, so my pondy's get regular treatment with bayer.

Two springs ago I started noticing problems with bark beetles on trees in the growing bed. Had a styrax that I'd been working on for several years, the new growth just started wilting and the trunks I'd been working on were killed back to the ground. This past spring, same thing happened to several other trees. So will try using pyrethrins to deter the bark beetles. So far they haven't attacked anything potted.

The vast majority of my trees don't get treated with any chemicals, though with all the new pests and diseases it may only be a matter of time.

 

[JoeR]

Fwiw, location, region, micro-climate all play a role. I had practiced bonsai for a decade in the Northeast for a decade without ever having an issue with juniper blight, cedar-apple rust, or spider mites. I moved to GA 6 years ago and haven't had a growing season since where both mites, rusts and blights haven't been an issue. Same collection, different region...different pests. Another fwiw... if I let nature take it's course when spider mites rear their ugly heads every spring on my junipers....I wouldn't have any junipers come the fall.

I hadnt thought of that before. Something to think about.


Sucks that its worse at your new place.

 

[JoeR]

"Let nature take its course" sounds great, until nature starts taking its course with trees that you've spent years developing.



Biggest problems I've had have been with tip blight on pines (thus daconil and copper), tip moths on pines (mostly ponderosa) and spruce (bayer systemic), pine scale (again bayer), and scale on tropicals during the winter (mechanical removal and bayer). Tip blight is something that you cannot treat once it has developed, so I now use fungicides as preventatives. Same with the tip moths, so my pondy's get regular treatment with bayer.

Two springs ago I started noticing problems with bark beetles on trees in the growing bed. Had a styrax that I'd been working on for several years, the new growth just started wilting and the trunks I'd been working on were killed back to the ground. This past spring, same thing happened to several other trees. So will try using pyrethrins to deter the bark beetles. So far they haven't attacked anything potted.

The vast majority of my trees don't get treated with any chemicals, though with all the new pests and diseases it may only be a matter of time.

Something to think about is maybe every time you aquire a new tree, first quarantine the new tree for maybe six months before introducing them close to your trees to prevent any new diseases. Always clean tools very well, etc.

 

[sorce]

@jkl wrote a great bit on Cleanliness once....

A great read....a must practice.
But where is it?

I'm going to use steel pipes and screen for benches. Bugs don't like crawling hot black steel.
Wet wood on the other hand......
Well....as poplar lol as it is....I think it is inviting worse pests.

I know I am a bit isolated up where I am now....that helps.....great air flow.

I haven't used chemicals much besides "safe" mite spray.

Ritual dosing can't last forever IMO.

My boss told me something about soy and a weed. They GMO"d the soy so the weed wouldn't something and the weed modified itself to beat it....

Nature will always win.

Healthy trees.....keep healthy trees.

How bout a place for healthy specimens...
And a isolated place for new collects...or weak stuff.

Sorce

 

[aml1014]

Also we are forgetting the number one thing pests love.....WEAKNESS. if your tree is weak it's most likely gonna have bug/fungal problems, yet if your trees are happy and healthy they generally won't get infestations and if they do its on a minimal level because the tree has more ability to fight attack/infection.

 

[JoeR]

Also we are forgetting the number one thing pests love.....WEAKNESS. if your tree is weak it's most likely gonna have bug/fungal problems, yet if your trees are happy and healthy they generally won't get infestations and if they do its on a minimal level because the tree has more ability to fight attack/infection.

This is what I am thinking too. With a perfect draining soil, adequate fert and nutrients, good airflow and healthy trees, they should be able to withstand anything. If they cant its survival of the fittest!


Maybe put a weak tree with lots of deadwood a few feet away from your collection?! Jk