Black pine candle dilemma

[SeanR]

Hi all.

Been a lurker here for quite a few years, been doing bonsai for maybe 15 years now. Always been reluctant with pines but over this last 5 years i have ended up with a few, mostly starter trees but i do have one that is well established but needs refinement.

I live in Lancashire, UK, keep reading the weather in this region is not suitable to black pines but I've had success growing them from seedlings, they grow fast.

Anyways, im at a junction with one of the pines. I want it to back bud but at the same time don't want it to get super leggy.

Watching a video on you tube, Ryan Neil states "do not" cut candles if you want back budding, never forgot that.

Though looking at the tree, cant help but think i should cut the candles this year.

Last year i left the tree, its very healthy this year. There is some back budding but not at the level i want.

The tree basically looked like a bush when i got it, refining it slowly, branches are in good places.

Will add some images, any advice appreciated.,

 

[RODERLO]

Welcome aboard!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

There is always a balance with black pines, which is why developing them properly is so much fun. Pines in general are difficult (but not impossible) to get to back-bud. You increase your odds of back-budding if you allow the tree to get really strong, and you don't candle prune. Additionally, once in several years (perhaps as infrequently as once per decade) you can do a hard pruning on a pine, and as long as the tree is strong you may stimulate back-budding. However, as you point out, waiting for a bud to pop can be a very lengthy process, and there is no guarantee that you will get a bud where you want/need, and you may accidentally allow the rest of your tree to fall behind on maintenance, and create more problems with leggy branches than you are solving waiting for a bud.

On this tree I would recommend focusing on developing ramification and balancing strength. You may find that as you develop ramification and increase the foliage mass on each branch, you will get back-budding as a result. If not - improve your grafting skills. The one thing you can say about a graft - it is exactly where you want it, and you don't have to wait years hoping for it to show up.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I have had great results promoting backbudding using a foliar feed of fulvic acid and kelp (5:2) as described by @cmeg1

Once those back buds are in place and strong you can be confident to cut back to them.

The current candles on this tree look very healthy and vigorous,

What is often discussed is that JBP often act like single flush pines in our climate, though double flush is rare it is not unheard of.

 

[SeanR]

Thanks for the replies, appreciated

The first time i trimmed this tree i did get a 2nd flush, but the tree at the time was extremely vigorous

Now you mention it, i do remember reading that in the UK that some folks tend to treat them as single flush pines..

 

[Shibui]

When Ryan said don't cut candles did he also say what you should do?
I get best back budding by not cutting candles too BUT I cut even harder. Way back to just a few of the oldest needles on each shoot.
Cutting candles usually only gives a cluster of new buds all round the base of the candle and occasionally a couple further back on the shoots.
Cutting back to the older needles gives the tree no options but to shoot from those lowest needles. It also removes most of the auxins produced by the buds and needles which can trigger more dormant buds further back.
Best results are when the tree is healthy and vigorous but even semi healthy pines will still produce 1 or 2 buds on most shoots after a hard cut back.

 

[SeanR]

Hello, no he didn't in that particular video.

I'm doing this from memory as cant remember which video it was but think he went on to say that his teacher Kimura established Yamadori bonsai faster than everyone else because he tended to leave cutting candles, to encourage back budding.

As in if you cut candles then it slows the flow of energy through the branch.

Maybe i understood incorrectly though, not sure.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Lots of good movement, Personally would also suggest grow sacrifice and get bigger trunk.

 

[SeanR]

Thanks.

Its the wrong way around in the pot, at the time i potted it i had a different idea as to what the front was.

Its going to have to wait for a number of years now before i repot.

 

[JeffS73]

In the UK our growing window is short. At a talk by Caz (caz bonsai), I think she's Lancashire? She said candle cutting has to happen early May if you're going to do it, and even then her JBP go under grow lights towards the end of the season so the 2nd flush comes out fully. So yes they can be double flush but it can take extra effort.

Regarding back budding, the cautious approach might be to reduce but not remove candles and see how it responds.
If it had been in the same pot for 2 seasons and was growing strong, you might consider cutting back into the previous years growth instead of just candle cutting.
I've been doing this for less time than you, on my 6 year old JBP I get good back budding if I remove lower candles and also reduce a sacrifice around the same time.

 

[SeanR]

Hi, thanks.

Thought i was being early by thinking of cutting them now, early May is a surprise but i do get that.

I like to be cautious, so maybe reducing the candles is the way to go and balancing out the tree.

There's no rush with the tree, just don't want do anything that will have a negative long term impact.

Learning curve. I have many small black pines but with those, a lot less risk

 

[JeffS73]

Maybe set a couple aside that push candles at the same time and experiment on those?
There are some good articles on bonsai tonight about decandling and backbudding on JBP.

 

[SeanR]

I trimmed a lot of candles on those yesterday, will see what happens. They get full sun, well as much as possible here.

 

[Shibui]

Hello, no he didn't in that particular video.

I'm doing this from memory as cant remember which video it was but think he went on to say that his teacher Kimura established Yamadori bonsai faster than everyone else because he tended to leave cutting candles, to encourage back budding.

As in if you cut candles then it slows the flow of energy through the branch.

All that is accurate but at some stage you'll still need to prune or all branches end up long and bare as the oldest needles drop off at the end of their 3 year lifespan.
That's why, during development, I work on a 3 year cycle. Let the trees grow for 2-3 years to gain thickness and vigour/ strength then cut back to the oldest needles. New buds form from the remaining needles and the cycle starts again.
Sometimes the pros are so busy telling us what NOT to do they forget to tell us what TO do instead.

 

[SeanR]

I've just been out looking over the tree, and agree.

Removed some small branches that from the top that have nothing to do with the what i hope to be the final tree, left a sacrifice branch at the top to thicken the top part, will let that grow.

 

[Paradox]

The shoots on that tree are so long with very long necks, I would think you would have to cut them. You won't get buds along the neck of the shoot where there are no needles. Those big shoots indicate vigor though so that is good.

In the future, you can pinch them in half before they get that long if you don't want to cut them. That will help keep the internodes shorter at least.

Eventually though you will have to cut back but the goal is to build ramification and back budding so you have something to cut back to.

 

[SeanR]

You know what, just been out and can only describe what I've done as decomplicate the tree.

On closer inspection there is back budding in many parts of the tree, so in places cut back to that.

I can see the final tree more clearly now, got rid of some branches at the back of the tree too.

At least now i see the plan more clearly.

Appreciate all the help, thanks.

 

[shohin_branches]

The ramification process of candle cutting and the maintenance task of balancing your growth via needle plucking will naturally give you back budding on JBP. Transitioning your JBP from the development phase to refinement can feel very stressful/weird but once you get the timing of your black pine work dialed in for your climate it gets a lot easier and the tree does exactly what we need it to do.

Here is a closeup of a branch after I've finished plucking needles in November. You can see the back-budding that happened earlier that year. We are careful not to damage those small growth points so we have better branching and have growth to prune back to if the branches start outgrowing the shape we want for this tree. Plucking needles allows more light to hit branches which helps with back-budding. Leaving the needle sheath also allows any dormant buds at the base of the fascicle to remain undamaged.