Big box store Acer Palmatum

[ceriano]

I noticed our local had carried regular acer Palmatum this year. They are not grafted. Would this make decent bonsai material?

 

[caffeinated]

The regular acers are great for bonsai, though these have rather straight, uninteresting trunks. That could be mitigated. They are vigorous growers and will backbud readily. I've heard some pro' mention that they prefer the straight species rather than the various cultivars.

 

[ceriano]

The regular acers are great for bonsai, though these have rather straight, uninteresting trunks. That could be mitigated. They are vigorous growers and will backbud readily. I've heard some pro' mention that they prefer the straight species rather than the various cultivars.

They had at least 20 of them. I’ve never seen regular palmatum at the nurseries they usually carry bloodgood coral bark etc.

 

[ceriano]

The regular acers are great for bonsai, though these have rather straight, uninteresting trunks. That could be mitigated. They are vigorous growers and will backbud readily. I've heard some pro' mention that they prefer the straight species rather than the various cultivars.

Should I up-pot and chop to get movement in the trunk?

 

[Eckhoffw]

Should I up-pot and chop to get movement in the trunk?

Maybe an air layer(s) so you can start a new one fresh roots too!

 

[ceriano]

Maybe an air layer(s) so you can start a new one fresh roots too!

Something like this?

 

[Shibui]

I prefer seed grown JM for bonsai. Many of the cultivars have undesirable characteristics like large leaves, long internodes, many are simply not strong and no possible problem with graft.
Any tree can be used as bonsai but starting with better options can reduce the years spent developing the trunk and overcoming faults.
Which will suit can depend what shaped bonsai you want to end up with but some factors are universal - Trunk taper, good nebari.
Try to find a trunk that has one or more forks so one side can be chopped leaving the trunk with taper and/or an attractive bend.
Try to find a trunk with spreading radial roots on one level.

With commercial plants sometimes the original root system is way down in the pot because the nursery staff are underpaid and bored when potting on and it doesn't really matter for landscape material anyway. Check for roots if possible.
Layering seems to be a regular suggestion but mostly from well meaning growers with less experience. Layers can produce excellent rootage but rarely good trunks. For the time it takes you could buy another cheap tree and actually get on with developing the one you have straight away.
The choices, as always, are yours to make.

Almost all faults can be overcome but it takes time and effort and with every step there is a risk of something not working as planned.
Cheap is one thing but paying a bit extra for a tree developed with bonsai in mind can save several years off the development process. Your choice to start with cheap or good quality

 

[ceriano]

I prefer seed grown JM for bonsai. Many of the cultivars have undesirable characteristics like large leaves, long internodes, many are simply not strong and no possible problem with graft.
Any tree can be used as bonsai but starting with better options can reduce the years spent developing the trunk and overcoming faults.
Which will suit can depend what shaped bonsai you want to end up with but some factors are universal - Trunk taper, good nebari.
Try to find a trunk that has one or more forks so one side can be chopped leaving the trunk with taper and/or an attractive bend.
Try to find a trunk with spreading radial roots on one level.

With commercial plants sometimes the original root system is way down in the pot because the nursery staff are underpaid and bored when potting on and it doesn't really matter for landscape material anyway. Check for roots if possible.
Layering seems to be a regular suggestion but mostly from well meaning growers with less experience. Layers can produce excellent rootage but rarely good trunks. For the time it takes you could buy another cheap tree and actually get on with developing the one you have straight away.
The choices, as always, are yours to make.

Almost all faults can be overcome but it takes time and effort and with every step there is a risk of something not working as planned.
Cheap is one thing but paying a bit extra for a tree developed with bonsai in mind can save several years off the development process. Your choice to start with cheap or good quality

Thanks for the tip. I guess you convinced me to stay away from these for bonsai. I may get one just to practice air layering. Maybe something I could use to make a forest.

 

[sorce]

Layers can produce excellent rootage but rarely good trunks.

In that we are more or less selecting the trunk, do you mean post removal trunk growing?

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

In that we are more or less selecting the trunk, do you mean post removal trunk growing?

I think 'selecting the trunk' is the key here. Most advice to layer commercial plants seems to be based on where layers can be fitted in rather than what the trunk looks like. Commercial, big box and plant store trees are grown fast for quick turnover. The branches tend to have long internodes and straight sections, neither of those is good for bonsai trunks so why bother.
I've layered a lot of trees. I've also collected a lot of trees. I have kept very few of those long term. Both branches and potential collecting trees look great in the field. maybe it is enthusiasm, adrenalin that clouds our judgement. Maybe it is scale - looking at a branch against a full sized tree. Whatever the cause the closer you get to the subject the less 'bonsai' like it looks but we still tend to go ahead and do the layer or dig because we started, we can and eternal optimism - it might look better after.
After the tree gets into a pot you start to wonder what you saw initially. That's when we start to see requests for help in styling.
After another year or 2 of trying to fix the faults in shape, taper, etc we give up and either relegate the tree to the back row or around the corner or pass it on to some other unsuspecting newbie.
Maybe I'm just not good at selecting. Also need to factor in what standards you expect your bonsai to have so layers from commercial trees could suit some newer growers. I'd be interested to see and hear from others about their experiences in developing good bonsai from this type of starting material.

The best bonsai I've seen from layering have been layered from other bonsai because branches and apex of bonsai have been developed with short internodes, good bends and taper.

 

[Eckhoffw]

I think 'selecting the trunk' is the key here. Most advice to layer commercial plants seems to be based on where layers can be fitted in rather than what the trunk looks like. Commercial, big box and plant store trees are grown fast for quick turnover. The branches tend to have long internodes and straight sections, neither of those is good for bonsai trunks so why bother.
I've layered a lot of trees. I've also collected a lot of trees. I have kept very few of those long term. Both branches and potential collecting trees look great in the field. maybe it is enthusiasm, adrenalin that clouds our judgement. Maybe it is scale - looking at a branch against a full sized tree. Whatever the cause the closer you get to the subject the less 'bonsai' like it looks but we still tend to go ahead and do the layer or dig because we started, we can and eternal optimism - it might look better after.
After the tree gets into a pot you start to wonder what you saw initially. That's when we start to see requests for help in styling.
After another year or 2 of trying to fix the faults in shape, taper, etc we give up and either relegate the tree to the back row or around the corner or pass it on to some other unsuspecting newbie.
Maybe I'm just not good at selecting. Also need to factor in what standards you expect your bonsai to have so layers from commercial trees could suit some newer growers. I'd be interested to see and hear from others about their experiences in developing good bonsai from this type of starting material.

The best bonsai I've seen from layering have been layered from other bonsai because branches and apex of bonsai have been developed with short internodes, good bends and taper.

Lots of good insight here for sure!
However, this tree has already been purchased, no?
Even if the tree doesn’t have preexisting bonsai bones, I’d chose to layer it up or plant it in the yard.
Layering provides more trees with an option to learn lots. Bang for the buck for us beginners.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I have a few big box maples and am a big fan. I encourage people to work with them. That said, these have a specific place in my bonsai-ing. As a newbie, I cannot yet say whether "better" material seedlings will produce a bonsai faster/better than a big box maple. I do know that I am not as excited to bonsai with only a bunch of saplings and want something larger to work with and don't want to break the bank just yet with something more developed (I am not even 100% sure where to even buy such things). I also won't discount the adage "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" - that's exactly where I'm at in this art. So as I try to reinvent the wheel working on big box trees, I am always waiting for that aha moment when I realize why big box maples aren't the best use of my time and energy.

I try to be very picky if I am looking for larger material in a nursery as I will end up dropping some coin. Selecting the trunk is key, as is trying to see if there is some nebari under the soil (I pack a chopstick). I have only purchased big box acer palmatum at a discount - no more than $15. Trunks are always straight as these are sold for landscaping. Roots are a crap-shoot, and I have yet to find magical radial nebari. I have found, however, that I can get the roots growing in a way that will be acceptable to me for this tree. I will likely root graft them to improve nebari. Is this tree worth the effort? Again, I can't yet tell you that, but I do want to perform many grafts before I do one on something more developed. For $15, I am satisfied with the learning experience and the thicker trunk (1.5" or more). I can cut really low to get movement and perhaps a shohin, higher up for more of a myogi and a larger tree, or no lower movement and a broom etc. For $15, I have yet to find better material, but there is surely better material. As I hone my skills on the big box trees, my other material can grow out safely and without fear of my newbie hands.

 

[sorce]

Commercial, big box and plant store trees are grown fast for quick turnover. The branches tend to have long internodes and straight sections, neither of those is good for bonsai trunks so why bother.

Amen. Thanks!

I don't know the likelihood or ease of layers to take on these, but it seems reliable enough to spend some time growing out new shorter noded sections of these to future layer.

I'm almost fully against even bothering with nursery potted "nebari", so a layering I will go no matter what, well, matter the current situation of the long internodes and mostly useless form.

But with standard JM, (maybe it's just because I don't have one so it's still rather romantic to me) I'd probably buy one, for the long game plan.

Course, it's the only way I'd be able to afford one, cuz anything under some couple thousand always need way more backwards work than starting a nice layer from scratch.

Sorce

 

[caffeinated]

They had at least 20 of them. I’ve never seen regular palmatum at the nurseries they usually carry bloodgood coral bark etc.

Yeah, I never see them for sale anywhere. I actually used to ask at nurseries if they carried them and it was apparently an unusual ask (and they never did). I have one huge one now that was a Craigslist buy out of a landscape, that I'm taking a bunch of air layers from. Pretty excited to get down working with the actual trunk. Pretty fat with fun subtle movement.

 

[Paradox]

I would save your money for something better down the line. None of those pictured are good buys imo unless you really want to try your hand at air layering and playing around with that. The trunks aren't very big and will need air layers.

I'd avoid the red leafed one for sure and any that might be the more narrow leafed. If there is one with particularly small leaves it might be worth playing with if it's not expensive.

My gut tells me to leave them there

 

[dbonsaiw]

I would save your money for something better down the line.

neither of those is good for bonsai trunks so why bother.

Can we discuss this notion of "better" material again? Obviously, trees that have been worked to improve nebari, trunk movement and taper, and branching are better material. These typically come with a higher price tag. For purposes of this discussion, let's take these types of trees out of the equation and deal with the more pre-bonsai type trees that we seem to be addressing here. I have found the following (general) sources:

- ebay, etsy and other similar online sites - unreliable, over-priced and generally not good material. I don't even bother.
- Higher-end growers - typically saplings/young trees. Pricier as far as seedlings concerned. Will require years of growth and development of all aspects of the tree. Roots are not yet giant lignified monsters and can be set up to grow properly. Good grower will provide a pot full of fine feeder roots.
- Local Bonsai shop - Again, young trees that require years of growth and development of all aspects of the tree. I have been unimpressed with the nebari and could not discern any special bonsai treatment to these trees. Potting soil slip potted into less crappy potting soil. Considering there are thousands of trees in the shop, this doesn't surprise me one bit. Trees have lower branching. I couldn't feel more like a tourist than after they provide me with a choice of bonsai pot and place a rock on the few pieces of actual bonsai soil they use as top dressing.
- Nursery - Larger caliper trees can be had. Roots can be a mess. Pricey. Year-end sales.
- Big box - Largish caliper trees. With the exception of one tree, each tree had roots that were fine for what this is. Usually 2 giant roots opposite each other as nebari. Cheap. Really nothing worth layering and I don't because I lose a season that I could have worked the roots.
- Ground grown for bonsai - For a price, larger caliper trees and, at times, movement/taper in trunk. Lower branching, but generally will need to be chopped etc.

My experience has thus far been that can I have a young tree for $50-$90 that hasn't had a chance yet to grow thick roots. They can be set up to grow nicer nebari. I am not growing in the ground, so it will be many years until I have a trunk that I want to work with. In the $200 range, I can have a ground grown for bonsai tree that has the caliper I want now. It's been in the ground for 8+ years. It will still need work to develop nebari and trunk movement/taper. In the fall, I can have a big box maple for $15.

I spend probably too much time surfing the web looking for trees and those $1,000 trees don't have the magical radial nebari either. Some of their nebari is in fact quite hideous. Others have a handful of oversized nebari - even I can do better. So what am I missing? Ultimately, when it comes to pre-bonsai, are we even looking for anything more than that starting point from which we will necessarily need to grow out the tree, prune it back to create movement and taper, develop nebari and ultimately branching? Seems like we are basically starting from the beginning, so why not start with a larger caliper on a tree that has already passed the survival of the fittest test in the rough commercial process?

 

[Paradox]

Can we discuss this notion of "better" material again?

Sorry, I responded at 1AM during a bought of insomnia. Getting into a long explanation was more than I could handle at the time

 

[dbonsaiw]

Some food for thought: Below are two trees that are sold online as deciduous specimen trees. They are $400 and $1,500 respectively (that's 100 big box trees folks!!!!). Branch ramification looks good on these, but if this is the better nebari we are discussing, you all should be in for a treat with the big box trees. The third pic is the only one I seem to have of the big box "nebari" so far (my "Acer HomeDepotnium #2) - 4 larger radial roots (one is in the back) and a ton more under the soil. The last is the uncovered portion of the nebari of a nursery maple I purchased last fall on sale for $100. Trunk is almost 2.5" diameter and the root spread is much bigger (it has been buried to ramify).

 

[rockm]

Some food for thought: Below are two trees that are sold online as deciduous specimen trees. They are $400 and $1,500 respectively (that's 100 big box trees folks!!!!). Branch ramification looks good on these, but if this is the better nebari we are discussing, you all should be in for a treat with the big box trees. The third pic is the only one I seem to have of the big box "nebari" so far (my "Acer HomeDepotnium #2) - 4 larger radial roots (one is in the back) and a ton more under the soil. The last is the uncovered portion of the nebari of a nursery maple I purchased last fall on sale for $100. Trunk is almost 2.5" diameter and the root spread is much bigger (it has been buried to ramify).

Both of those trees are a mess from nebari to "ramification" (and I use that term loosely). They're waay overpriced. Where'd they come from?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

They had at least 20 of them. I’ve never seen regular palmatum at the nurseries they usually carry bloodgood coral bark etc.

That's because you have no idea what you'll be getting. When you get a cultivar you are getting a CLONE. All bloodgoods on the planet are offspring of a single tree and are all genetically IDENTICAL.

With an Acer Palmatum you have no idea what you'll be getting - which could be good or bad depending on what you are looking for. You can even see the variability of the trees just in that one store. Some are red, some are green, some are red-tinged, etc. I'll be they are all just a bunch of random seedlings that popped up at a landscape nursery.

Some food for thought: Below are two trees that are sold online as deciduous specimen trees. They are $400 and $1,500 respectively (that's 100 big box trees folks!!!!).

Those are just a couple of import Chinese elms that might be worth 1/10th what the sellers are asking for them. I really think that people overprice trees on eBay just to see if they can get a single sucker to bite, because they make a 95% profit margin on a single sale.