Autumn Moon Maple suggestions

[Bonsaidoctor]

I found a cute- but not terribly unique tree at a general nursery. Its about 2' tall and 2/3" nebari. I am considering what to do next. As I always learn from feedback from the forum, I thought I would post this broad question so I can learn. I see three basic choices:
1. Pot as is (probably 14"- 16" rectangular pot- that is about 2/3rds size of tree).
2. Plan on doing a trunk cut down probably in the fall. (I have read the extensive posts on when is best time to do a maple truck cut down).
3. Let if grown in nursery pot (with slip pots slowly increase size) until trunk gets thicker.

Look forward to any feedback.
Randy

 

[0soyoung]

Instead of #2 consider starting an air layer right now of the part you plan to lop off. Odds are it will have roots and can be potted several weeks before leaf drop instead of tossing it in the compost pile. I think the rest of your plan is fine and pretty much what I did when I started on this adventure. Meanwhile get a supply of inorganic substrate. Grow your layer in it.

I get Turface MVP at a local Ewing Irrigation or John Deere Landscape store. Others use NAPA Oil Dry #8822 from the auto parts store because it is inexpensive and readily available for them. There's also pricier stuff like "Boon's mix" (pumice, lava, Akadama), Clay King, and etc. available from bonsai material suppliers.

 

[Maloghurst]

Airlayering is an option but I would not drastically prune this yet. I would wait till next spring as buds are swelling and bare root it. Lightly root prune and get rid of tap roots/strongly downward growing roots. Pot in a wide grow box or flat with decent soil. Then let it go for several years.

You could wire some movement into the bottom 8” and possibly plant at an angle when you repot in the spring.
It’s pretty thin and young right now and the graft is pretty high as well but that might get better as the trunk is allowed to thicken.
You can keep up-potting in nursery cans but you need better soil and to have some control over the roots or you will have a mess down the road

 

[Japonicus]

I've got 3 Autumn Moons in orbit ATM. The 2 smaller ones I got from Brent last year on their own roots.
The one in the yard 10+ yrs in ground, has an acceptable very high graft that blends inconspicuously enough for me.

The one in the grow box is planted on a 6" ceramic saucer. Next Spring before bud swell, I will pour the soil off
and check root placement. If it needs attention, I will repot, if not, I will tweak the soil composition and refresh.
The one in the ground will get hard pruned in July this year, and if it responds well, will be either spaded and trenched
adding/back filling with aggregate or entirely lifted. Who knows, it may get drastically root pruned and back in the ground, or a grow box.
3 hours from you, I am done messing with roots on deciduous trees into pots, but if needed, not too late to simply up-pot to similar soil it's in presently
then drastically changing potting media in the Spring just as buds start moving and provide freeze protection till late April.
Wiring deciduous for trunk movement can be quite "fracture-ous". This is where getting the layer going or also ordering a couple from Brent will provide
excellent opportunity to create movement down low via pruning/growth direction.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/acer.htm
only has 2-3/4" pots available this June which is what I got from him if not 3"
Subbed to the thread, I need to learn as much as I can too. Best of luck @Bonsaidoctor

 

[Bonsaidoctor]

Greatly appreciate all of the feedback.

 

[rockm]

I found a cute- but not terribly unique tree at a general nursery. Its about 2' tall and 2/3" nebari. I am considering what to do next. As I always learn from feedback from the forum, I thought I would post this broad question so I can learn. I see three basic choices:
1. Pot as is (probably 14"- 16" rectangular pot- that is about 2/3rds size of tree).
2. Plan on doing a trunk cut down probably in the fall. (I have read the extensive posts on when is best time to do a maple truck cut down).
3. Let if grown in nursery pot (with slip pots slowly increase size) until trunk gets thicker.

Look forward to any feedback.
Randy

View attachment 242067View attachment 242068

I don't know where you heard that fall is the best time to do a trunk chop. It's not. It will lead to die back down the trunk as the wound sits unhealed for the most part for six months. If you are overwintering the tree outside, it could make that die back worse. Best time to chop mostly any tree is in springtime. Faster healing and backbudding.

If the argument is the tree will "bleed to death" if you chop in spring, that 's baloney. Trees don't bleed to death. They lose sap and it won't have much of an impact. Reducing the roots just before a spring trunk chop will eliminate the "bleeding."

You will greatly reduce the thickening of the trunk by chopping it and slip potting. The more top growth, the more thickening you get.

 

[Japonicus]

I don't know where you heard that fall is the best time to do a trunk chop. It's not. It will lead to die back down the trunk as the wound sits unhealed for the most part for six months. If you are overwintering the tree outside, it could make that die back worse. Best time to chop mostly any tree is in springtime. Faster healing and backbudding.

If the argument is the tree will "bleed to death" if you chop in spring, that 's baloney. Trees don't bleed to death. They lose sap and it won't have much of an impact. Reducing the roots just before a spring trunk chop will eliminate the "bleeding."

You will greatly reduce the thickening of the trunk by chopping it and slip potting. The more top growth, the more thickening you get.

@rockm do you think this would be fair game for a July prune (lowest potential prune locations in red)?
That's not a totality indication, but general idea. I'm attempting a layer on the upper right fork presently as that would be removed.

Just a reminder to @Bonsaidoctor that the Moon maples are not as robust as, and lack a lot of the vigour that Japanese maples exhibit.

 

[rockm]

@rockm do you think this would be fair game for a July prune (lowest potential prune locations in red)?
That's not a totality indication, but general idea. I'm attempting a layer on the upper right fork presently as that would be removed.
View attachment 242228
Just a reminder to @Bonsaidoctor that the Moon maples are not as robust as, and lack a lot of the vigour that Japanese maples exhibit.

Guess I'm wondering why you would prune this tree at all. If you're trying to make a bonsai from it, the bottom third of the trunk is all that is important. Air layering is nice, but there's really nothing worth the effort here. The limbs are not all that interesting for the foundation of a bonsai. Yeah, you'd get "free" trees and all --if the airlayer takes, but if you're going to bonsai the maple, concentrate on the bottom, not the top. The top is replaceable.

 

[Japonicus]

Guess I'm wondering why you would prune this tree at all. If you're trying to make a bonsai from it, the bottom third of the trunk is all that is important. Air layering is nice, but there's really nothing worth the effort here. The limbs are not all that interesting for the foundation of a bonsai. Yeah, you'd get "free" trees and all --if the airlayer takes, but if you're going to bonsai the maple, concentrate on the bottom, not the top. The top is replaceable.

That was Walter Palls take on it, to hard prune 1st in July, back fill roots in Spring, lift the following Spring. Of course he's in Germany, but it's still just a tree.

I was leaning in the direction of a 28" tree initially, (1/2 current structure) then doing a drastic prune once the tree had recovered to replace the top.
After that, given the height of the trunk and the leaf size of shirasawanum, a 28" or so tree may still well be in my plans.
Thankfully not carved in stone yet, and it does make a nice lawn decoration.

 

[rockm]

That was Walter Palls take on it, to hard prune 1st in July, back fill roots in Spring, lift the following Spring. Of course he's in Germany, but it's still just a tree.

I was leaning in the direction of a 28" tree initially, (1/2 current structure) then doing a drastic prune once the tree had recovered to replace the top.
After that, given the height of the trunk and the leaf size of shirasawanum, a 28" or so tree may still well be in my plans.
Thankfully not carved in stone yet, and it does make a nice lawn decoration.

he's in Germany. he's also been doing bonsai for about 300 years now...I'd get more local with advice. I would chop next spring to within 3-5 inches of you planned "final" height.. At the same time, I would also lift the plant and remove 75-80 percent of its roots, basically, I'd saw off the bottom two thirds of it. Replant in shallower container.

28 inches is FAAAAR too tall for this trunk. A bonsai that tall with such a thin trunk will look immature and spindly. The final height for this trunk, if your satisfied with the diameter is about 6-8 INCHES. taller than that the proportion of trunk diameter to height gets strained...

 

[rockm]

he's in Germany. he's also been doing bonsai for about 300 years now...I'd get more local with advice. I would chop next spring to within 3-5 inches of you planned "final" height.. At the same time, I would also lift the plant and remove 75-80 percent of its roots, basically, I'd saw off the bottom two thirds of it. Replant in shallower container.

28 inches is FAAAAR too tall for this trunk. A bonsai that tall with such a thin trunk will look immature and spindly. The final height for this trunk, if your satisfied with the diameter is about 6-8 INCHES. taller than that the proportion of trunk diameter to height gets strained...

I really meant no disrespect with the above. What I meant was that WP could probably trunk chop a maple at anytime and get it to live. You're not WP, neither am I. I would aim for a more bulletproof timing for the chop.

 

[Japonicus]

he's in Germany. he's also been doing bonsai for about 300 years now...I'd get more local with advice. I would chop next spring to within 3-5 inches of you planned "final" height.. At the same time, I would also lift the plant and remove 75-80 percent of its roots, basically, I'd saw off the bottom two thirds of it. Replant in shallower container.

28 inches is FAAAAR too tall for this trunk. A bonsai that tall with such a thin trunk will look immature and spindly. The final height for this trunk, if your satisfied with the diameter is about 6-8 INCHES. taller than that the proportion of trunk diameter to height gets strained...

You're right he's also got help and locations for aftercare in addition to his capabilities and experience.
The graft is right at the 1st branch, so tall slender trunk in ground 10+ years, tall slender trunk as bonsai.
I've grown it out freely from whip, smaller than pencil. It's just not going to get much more girth.
These other 2 I have will get some movement lower, and no graft. Sorry for the hijack @Bonsaidoctor
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/n...g-a-landscape-shirasawanum-autumn-moon.37375/
I will divert any further posts on this tree to the thread linked here.