Attempting again in 2025: Japanese White Bark Beech from seed/nuts - suggestions?

[arbuscula]

As per the title: I'm looking for input, suggestions from members on giving some Japanese White Bark Beech nuts a better chance for germination in 2025 - having got a new batch of nuts to try. 106 nuts, received Thursday 5th December. I'm also in the UK .

This spring (May 2024) I had one germinated out of 217... not great returns . Those were obtained in December 2023. Did the water test: soak to see which will sink/float - singers supposed to be more viable: the one that germinated was a 'floater' . I did a thread on this earlier around June.

Before I go the route tried last time, soak/fridge/sow... and be patient - has anyone else other suggestions, guidance to offer? The nuts are still in the plastic bags they arrived in and in a cool utility room.

Just to add: I've tried Google search, watched a video for starting Copper Beech nuts (sown in February) but nothing for Japanese White Bark Beech (Fagus crenata)... lots for Fagus sylvatica - Common Green Beech.

Photos of the one germinated from 217...

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Never grown these from seed, but I always prefer stratification done the natural way

Plant them outside and protect from critters and let them experience the winter outside

Sure keep some in the fridge if you like that idea (I actually do both) best results are always from outside tho!

a kelp soak for 24 hours can help if the seeds aren't fresh, due to giberillic acid aiding germination

Hb101 is also a great seed soak but I don't know why, just know I have had great results with it

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I guess there’s a reason J. beech is so rare! If you haven’t read this, Brent’s article on germination is good, though not species-specific.

How to Germinate Seed for Bonsai

Good luck, they are really amazing as bonsai.

 

[Hasagawa]

Beech seeds vary in yield every few years. Both in terms of numbers and quality.
In an experiment conducted by the Japanese Forestry Agency, Germination rates ranged from 0.4% to 13%.
Your low germination rate may be due to poor seed quality, not your technique.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I remember reading somewhere that beech in general relies heavily on fungi to germinate.
I've found that soaking seeds in peroxide solution, like 1%, helps germination increase compared to just water.
Since beeches grow in dense forest, I'm thinking the leaf litter and fungi present there would help them grow. So instead of using the regular inorganics, I'd go for non-composted organics for a part of the batch.
It might bump the germination rate up by a percent or five.

 

[arbuscula]

I guess there’s a reason J. beech is so rare! If you haven’t read this, Brent’s article on germination is good, though not species-specific.

How to Germinate Seed for Bonsai

Good luck, they are really amazing as bonsai.

Excellent article and very interesting reading - thank for sharing.

Back in 2019 I got multiple types of seeds including JWBB along with Trident Maple, Sango Kaku and Zelkova serrata. With all of these I put in the fridge for a couple of weeks, then removed, then replaced in the fridge - thinking I'm following the natural process of temperatures. I was successful with the Zelkova and Sango Kaku, not so much with the Trident and 0 with the JWBB.

I'll try different things with these 106 nuts... I have wondered about the hard shell being the probable issue. I've also recently wondered if breaking the shell and removing any seeds present would work with germination? However, I've also thought there's a reason for the shell and it playing an important part in the germination process.

 

[arbuscula]

I remember reading somewhere that beech in general relies heavily on fungi to germinate.
I've found that soaking seeds in peroxide solution, like 1%, helps germination increase compared to just water.
Since beeches grow in dense forest, I'm thinking the leaf litter and fungi present there would help them grow. So instead of using the regular inorganics, I'd go for non-composted organics for a part of the batch.
It might bump the germination rate up by a percent or five.

Thanks. Interesting bit about trying a hydrogen peroxide when soaking... something I'll try . One thing that I've seen mentioned when reading up on JWBB is that very little, if anything, grows under their canopy. Your mention of leaf litter and fungi may have a bearing also.

 

[arbuscula]

Beech seeds vary in yield every few years. Both in terms of numbers and quality.
In an experiment conducted by the Japanese Forestry Agency, Germination rates ranged from 0.4% to 13%.
Your low germination rate may be due to poor seed quality, not your technique.

Thank you. I got some JWBB seeds back in 2019 along with some other tree seeds: Trident Maple, Sango Kaku, Zelkova serrata.... I had good results from the Sango and Zelkova, limited with the Trident and 0 with the beech. If I remember correctly I think the beech nuts were a bit 'sunken' - dried out - and not plump. The batch from 2023, received in December, also had many sunken, but I was pleased to see the one that germinated. The germination rate can be rather low though from the information you've given.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Beech seeds vary in yield every few years. Both in terms of numbers and quality.
In an experiment conducted by the Japanese Forestry Agency, Germination rates ranged from 0.4% to 13%.
Your low germination rate may be due to poor seed quality, not your technique.

Thank you! Would you please be able to say more about this? Any publications available? (Even if they are in Japanese, it does not matter). I have a seen a few, but none that confirm what I am hearing from people on the ground.

About 10-15 years ago, it was common to find Fagus crenata seeds from Japan available in North America and Europe. About 10 years ago, the availability of these seeds disappeared for everybody! Multiple suppliers in Japan were no longer able to export the seed of this species. I have heard about low germination rates. I was also told by several people that Japanese agencies have banned the collection of Fagus crenata seed, not only on Mt. Fuji (where the Fuji Buna variety was once collected) but for the entire country of Japan, including private property!

Some of us are going to great lengths trying to find way to propagate Fagus crenata. I know that Andrew Robson from Rakuyo is working hard on this problem, and I myself have sponsored a PhD candidate working on variations of 'extreme' etiolation as part of her thesis so that she would include Fagus crenata in her research. I have offered scholarships through a few Master's and PhD programs around the world for several years now and as a result we have been presented with some very interesting ideas but (according to the thesis committees) we have yet received very few original avenues worth pursuing.

I recently met with an individual in Japan who claims to have considerable success with cuttings, and he had the trays to prove it! In my opinion his success rate was suspiciously high, especially given that the techniques he described were those many of us all over the world (including in Japan!) have tried countless times and failed. It's of course possible that he discovered a really efficient procedure that he is keeping secret and therefore chose to deliberately mislead me with regards to the propagation technique he is using, but this would be very surprising because, in my experience, everybody has been very open and generous with their knowledge and teaching in Japan. That said, I am having trouble making sense of his success rates. Has he found a genetic strain that can be easily propagated by cutting? Is his fagus crenata somehow a hybrid with another species that makes it more easy to propagate via cutting? I can only speculate for now. I have acquired some of his material in Japan and I have 2 people working on figuring things out!

 

[arbuscula]

@Canada Bonsai - thank you for joining the conversation on propagation of Fagus crenata. I realise your post is in response to @Hasagawa but I find it interesting. I wish you and the two people you have working on the material you have obtained. The individual in Japan may have had success because of the different weather in his country compared to North America and Europe? I know that Peter Chan of Heron's Bonsai, from where I've obtained the seeds this year and previously, has not had success with Fagus crenata. He recently mentioned so in his YT video on collecting seeds and propagation...

Going "off topic" - as in a different tree I was informed was extremely difficult to propagate from cuttings: Paul's Scarlet Hawthorn. I've been able to get some cuttings to root, taken this year, which I'm looking to next spring to see if they progress further. I used some old rooting powder hormone for some while others dipped in "DipAndGrow" solution. Possibly others trying to get Fagus crenata cuttings have also tried the "DipAndGrow"? I was able to get some Japanese Hawthorn cuttings to also root - using "DipAndGrow".

I was also able to get a big "airlayer" (2" to 2.5" diam.) from a Fagus sylvatica - airlayer started May this year and removed late September. I'd been told it would take 2 years to do - if it was successful. I followed a video on YouTube for taking an airlayer from Fagus crenata by a Japanese Bonsai master - in Japan. A video you are probably well aware of with your endeavours to propagate Japanese White Bark Beech.

Apologies if I've gone too much away from your posting.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

extremely difficult to propagate from cuttings: Paul's Scarlet Hawthorn. I've been able to get some cuttings to root, taken this year, which I'm looking to next spring to see if they progress further

sorry to keep heading off-topic; I'll be brief! Here is an interesting way to propagate hawthorn cultivars:

Take root cuttings of ordinary hawthorn (the rootstock of your parent plant). Often these have interesting shapes that could make for interesting shohin size trees or smaller.
Then, graft scions or buds of your cultivar, in this case Paul's Scarlet Hawthorn.

I visited Toyoda-san in April to learn how to do this directly from the master. The individual techniques are straightforward: root cuttings, grafting, graft maintenance. I wanted to learn this from because I think it has potential for a number of other species, for example Princess Persimmon, which he, and nobody else to his knowledge, have tried doing this way before.

 

[arbuscula]

sorry to keep heading off-topic; I'll be brief! Here is an interesting way to propagate hawthorn cultivars:

Take root cuttings of ordinary hawthorn (the rootstock of your parent plant). Often these have interesting shapes that could make for interesting shohin size trees or smaller.
Then, graft scions or buds of your cultivar, in this case Paul's Scarlet Hawthorn.

I visited Toyoda-san in April to learn how to do this directly from the master. The individual techniques are straightforward: root cuttings, grafting, graft maintenance. I wanted to learn this from because I think it has potential for a number of other species, for example Princess Persimmon, which he, and nobody else to his knowledge, have tried doing this way before.

Thank you for sharing this. I'd been told about using Crataegus monogyna roots during the summer but had not taken it further with having taken these cuttings. Looks an interesting way to try. Is it something that has been tried with Fagus crenata along with cuttings and such?

The one seed I had germinate (from 217!) Is not yet at any stage to attempt. Maybe something for the future? Tried with Fagus sylvatica? I'm not educated in such.