Are these pines and maples good cultivars for bonsai

[Tbrshou]

Im trying to find a few good white pine, black pine and maple specimens for future bonsai years down the road. I almost purchased a thunderhead but luckily someone advised against it as it wasn't good for bonsai. So any help on picking a couple of nice cultivars to research and grow from the pictures.

 

[Just Rosie]

Don’t tell me thunderhead isn’t good for Bonsai, that’s what my little project JBP is did they tell you why?

 

[Tbrshou]

Don’t tell me thunderhead isn’t good for Bonsai, that’s what my little project JBP is did they tell you why?

After he said that it went to charlie brown womp,womp womp, womp womp. It was huge and bushy too and on sale. I took his word for it and left it.

 

[penumbra]

Everything you showed is bonsaiable but you don't show any plants so there is no way of knowing what is bonsai material or not. I assume they are all grafts so that needs to be considered.

 

[MrWunderful]

A good way to decide what is “bonsaiable” s to Try to think more about the form or design as opposed to specific cultivars. Which have a line that is appealing to you? What styles do you like (Broom, formal upright, cascade etc. )

 

[Tbrshou]

A good way to decide what is “bonsaiable” s to Try to think more about the form or design as opposed to specific cultivars. Which have a line that is appealing to you? What styles do you like (Broom, formal upright, cascade etc. )

They're all going into the ground as they're fairly young (3yrs). I was going to purchase a few different cultivars i just wanted to know if they all react well to pine bonsai training.

 

[bonsaichile]

Don’t tell me thunderhead isn’t good for Bonsai, that’s what my little project JBP is did they tell you why?

get a different kind of jbp

 

[Just Rosie]

get a different kind of jbp

BUT WHY?
No really, why? Bc he’s either gonna be bonsai or dead from me trying to make him one.

 

[Adair M]

BUT WHY?
No really, why? Bc he’s either gonna be bonsai or dead from me trying to make him one.

The young buds and branches are real thick. They grow fast, too fast. The thickness of the buds and twigs makes them real coarse, and later, when you want to develop ramification with lots of little small branches, you’ll get big fat ones instead.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Tbrshou
None of the maples you showed are acceptable for bonsai, because they are all grafted stock. The graft union will likely be a problem. If asked before purchase my answer is to always avoid grafted maples. For bonsai, you want maple seedlings with no cultivar names and no graft unions.

If you want named cultivars only purchase cutting grown plants. Only place I can think of is Evergreen Gardenworks

Evergreen Gardenworks

If you are knowledgeable on what to look for there are a small handful of named maple cultivars that are in tissue culture propagation, which is another way to avoid grafted stock. But tissue culture stock is tricky to source. You really want to avoid grafted maples. The smooth bark is a major feature, and this never works with grafted material.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

All of the Japanese white pine cultivars you listed can work for bonsai if the graft union is skillfully made. Badly done grafts will never heal smooth enough for bonsai. However grafted trees are the only way to get most JWP cultivars. P. parviflora 'Hime Goyo Matsu' probably is the best of the bunch, though 'Glauca' is also a good cultivar.

Key is to look at the graft union, get the one with the best match or mating of the scion with the understock. It will take a decade before you can really know if the union will heal enough to be exhibition quality. But grafted JWP is the only option to obtain most named cultivars. My favorite JWP is 'Azuma' also written 'Pentafolia Azuma'.

The cultivars 'Zuisho' and 'Kokonoe' are occasionally available grown from air layers, but these 2 cultivars are the exception, all other cultivars do not air layer.

 

[Tbrshou]

All of the Japanese white pine cultivars you listed can work for bonsai if the graft union is skillfully made. Badly done grafts will never heal smooth enough for bonsai. However grafted trees are the only way to get most JWP cultivars. P. parviflora 'Hime Goyo Matsu' probably is the best of the bunch, though 'Glauca' is also a good cultivar.

Key is to look at the graft union, get the one with the best match or mating of the scion with the understock. It will take a decade before you can really know if the union will heal enough to be exhibition quality. But grafted JWP is the only option to obtain most named cultivars. My favorite JWP is 'Azuma' also written 'Pentafolia Azuma'.

The cultivars 'Zuisho' and 'Kokonoe' are occasionally available grown from air layers, but these 2 cultivars are the exception, all other cultivars do not air layer.

Thank You for both replies Leo great info. After this i think im gonna try and see if i can find better stock from someone in Atlanta Bonsai Society.

 

[Matte91]

@Tbrshou
None of the maples you showed are acceptable for bonsai, because they are all grafted stock. The graft union will likely be a problem. If asked before purchase my answer is to always avoid grafted maples. For bonsai, you want maple seedlings with no cultivar names and no graft unions.

If you want named cultivars only purchase cutting grown plants. Only place I can think of is Evergreen Gardenworks

Evergreen Gardenworks

If you are knowledgeable on what to look for there are a small handful of named maple cultivars that are in tissue culture propagation, which is another way to avoid grafted stock. But tissue culture stock is tricky to source. You really want to avoid grafted maples. The smooth bark is a major feature, and this never works with grafted material.

May I ask a question?
Isn't it possible to air layer the grafted maples? I ask because I own some grafted jap. Maples myself. My plan was to air layer some side branches, when they have grown thick. Thank you.

 

[Tbrshou]

@Leo in N E Illinois do you know of any sources for black and or white pines i want to get a few in the ground while im still in my 30's

 

[Just Rosie]

Thank You for both replies Leo great info. After this i think im gonna try and see if i can find better stock from someone in Atlanta Bonsai Society.

I didn’t realize you were a fellow georgian, if they give you any good resources for stock, please let me know! I reached out to them once but haven’t heard back

 

[Tbrshou]

I didn’t realize you were a fellow georgian, if they give you any good resources for stock, please let me know! I reached out to them once but haven’t heard back

Will do

 

[Adair M]

Mark Comstock has started thousands of JBP using the seedling cutting method. These will have superior nebari, and produce low branches.

You can find him on Facebook. He’s also known as “kingsvillegrower”.

For JWP, it’s more difficult. Seedlings generally don’t have good needle quality.

My best JWP are Zuisho and/or Kokonoe, and they have been produced by either air or ground layering. But, they are also 50 years old!

Therefore, I don’t recommend trying to grow a JWP from young stock. It really is better to save up some money and buying a good trunk sometime later in life.

Meanwhile, JBP can be grown and developed in a reasonable timeframe. Look up Eric Schrader’s thread, “A few pine seeds 6 years later”.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

May I ask a question?
Isn't it possible to air layer the grafted maples? I ask because I own some grafted jap. Maples myself. My plan was to air layer some side branches, when they have grown thick. Thank you.

Not trying to be flip, but the answer is sometimes YES, and sometimes NO. Japanese maples are a notoriously fickle or idiomatic group. To properly answer this question, you need a copy of Vertrees' book of Japanese Maples. In the appendix he has a list of Japanese maple cultivars that do root from cuttings. His statement is that the other cultivars listed in his book will not root from cuttings. Across the species Acer palmatum it is very irregular as to which cultivars root from cuttings and which do not. The list of cultivars that have proven able to root from cuttings is short compared to the list of cultivars in the book. And Vertrees' book is dated, there have been many new cultivars added since.

Experience has shown that if a tree can not be rooted from cuttings in a commercial grow bed (bottom heat, misting on timers, hormones, etc) it usually can not be rooted via air layer.

I do not own a copy of Vertrees, but I did borrow it at one time from our local public library. Working from memory, I do not recall any of the cultivars in your photos as being on the list of propagate by cuttings list. Now this doesn't mean it is automatically impossible to air layer or root from cuttings, but it does lower the chances of success.

I highly recommend purchasing cutting grown maples from https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/
Brent has a commercial grade propagation bed, and produces cuttings from some 20 or more different Japanese maple cultivars. And he covers the major foliage types, variegated, colored edges, purple foliage, red in summer foliage, dissecta and full moon types. His prices are modest. A mere 5 years in a grow out bed or a large pot will bring most of these cuttings up to the size needed for bonsai.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Leo in N E Illinois do you know of any sources for black and or white pines i want to get a few in the ground while im still in my 30's

As mentioned above, Mark Comstock for seed grown Japanese Black Pine

The two finest grafters, producing stock where the scion is grafted right into the root zone of the understock, there are only two sources I know of. Brent Walston at Evergreen Garden Works and David DeWire at Wabi Sabi. Both gentlemen produce excellent, low grafted select cultivars of Japanese white pines, Japanese black pines, and in David's case a wide range of other pines. Ask David about Jack Pines grafted for bonsai. These would be my go to sources. With Brent, his listings are often on the web as sold out. Email or call him, get on the waiting lists. Once you are on the waiting list he will contact you about each as they become available. Also with Brent, if it is now, say January, and he has a tree listed as available in June, with a price. Pay for the tree in January to be shipped in June, and you will get your tree. If you wait until June to order, it may very well be sold out.

Wabi Sabi Bonsai

Wabi Sabi Bonsai is a premier Pacific NW bonsai and dwarf conifer nursery enjoying 35 years in business with full hands-on experience in propagating, growing and training high quality, rare plant material for the creation of exceptional outdoor bonsai and outstanding landscapes.

www.wabisabibonsai.com

Evergreen Gardenworks

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Julian Adams has 'Zuisho' JWP, his availability limited, so a call or email is needed rather than just clicking buy it now.

z gallery 1

 

[Tbrshou]

@Just Rosie being that im gonna plant a few trees for long term growth i went ahead and drove to plant city bonsai and picked up a few experimental black pines. They're non grafted and fairly young but if i eat my veggies I should be around for a while to see them grow. Its about 1hr 15min N of Atlanta.