Anybody ever try bud grafting?

[cbroad]

I've never tried any grafting before, but I think bud grafting could be easier at least for me. This seems like a good longer term approach for branch placement. I don't think I've heard anybody talking about this for bonsai, is there a good reason why? Anybody ever try this for a less instant gratification technique on designing? This seems fairly straight forward and easier than normal grafting. Anybody have any tips or tricks?

 

[bonhe]

Bud grafting is used for flowering or fruit trees.
It should be done in July - September.
I used to do bud grafting for roses.
My teacher did a lot of bud grafting for crabapples.
Yes, it is easy technique but you need to keep the tree in the cool, shady place until winter that year.
Don't let the water go into the grafting area.
Bonhe

 

[MichaelS]

The trouble is that you need to remove what is above the grafted bud to stimulate it to grow. Otherwise, it can sometimes just sit there doing nothing even though it has taken well. It may be possible to apply the correct hormone to the bud to get it moving, although I have never tried this.

 

[cbroad]

Thank you @bonhe and @MichaelS, I've been thinking about this recently. I might give this a try in the spring on some random stuff laying around, which I have a lot of.

I was going to ask if I could expect it to sit dormant until the next growing season. That makes sense about having to prune everything above it to stimulate it. I guess you look at it like an adventitious bud, so depending on how high up, it could have/should have apical dominance.

What about putting it at a node? Would it have a better and quicker acceptance time, and possible quicker activation and almost guaranteed chance to push?

 

[sorce]

I don't think I've heard anybody talking about this for bonsai, is there a good reason why?

This sentence happened to be right after that one.....
The answer.....

a less instant gratification technique o

And.....

Why don't you just cut back to that node?

Poop poop!

Sorce

 

[cbroad]

I guess I deserve that poop drop Sorce...

Yeah I know we all want more instant gratification but sometimes slow and steady is better. If I have a long term goal with my plants, I may be fine with letting a branch grow and letting it work itself into the design. My vision is more hypothetical, but this could work for Ume or Quince, where you want to replace a current branch with a more appropriate branch sport. I have an idea of bud grafting Crapes to get a multi-colored tree, not necessarily for bonsai but more of an interesting and possibly gaudy Frankenstein experiment. But I think bud grafting has great application in bonsai and I've never heard anybody talking about it.

I am more of a tinkerer, so I always have ideas like this. Not sure of the actual application, but I'm sure someone else will think of it.

 

[bonhe]

cbroad, post],
I've been thinking about this recently. I might give this a try in the spring on some random stuff laying around, which I have a lot of.
I don't recommend this tech. to be done in the spring. It should be done in July - September.

I was going to ask if I could expect it to sit dormant until the next growing season.
Yes, you could.

That makes sense about having to prune everything above it to stimulate it. I guess you look at it like an adventitious bud, so depending on how high up, it could have/should have apical dominance.
It is why we should do it in the summer time when the tree is already grown. The new bud grafting will need time to establish. At that time of the year, both cytokinins and auxin are in full which will help the healing of the grafting. In the next spring, all of buds on the tree will have same privilege to wake up. I never had to prune the branch above the graft to wake it up.


What about putting it at a node?
You mean the scion to which you use is different with the stock, don't you?

Would it have a better and quicker acceptance time, and possible quicker activation and almost guaranteed chance to push?
I think so. That is a reason why when we do cutting, we try to get the cut surface in the node area, don't we?
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

cbroad,

but this could work for Ume or Quince, where you want to replace a current branch with a more appropriate branch sport. I have an idea of bud grafting Crapes to get a multi-colored tree,
I agree with you 100%. We can do bud grafting for ume, quince, peach, etc...

But I think bud grafting has great application in bonsai
Absolutely.

Bonhe

 

[cbroad]

@bonhe,
Thanks

Haha, I guess when I said spring I didn't mean spring spring but sometime next growing season when it's not cold.

I guess it's species specific but I could see having to prune a branch to stimulate the next node down.

You mean the scion to which you use is different with the stock, don't you

Yes, for the example but not necessarily.

I think so. That is a reason why when we do cutting, we try to get the cut surface in the node area, don't we?
Bonhe

Yes because of greater concentrations of hormones and more activity. But my question is, what's the difference between an adventitious bud and a node? Does the node give more activity and greater concentrations of hormones or is it the bud with the actual power? If we "create" a "node" with bud grafting does that site now have more hormones (which means more activity) or is it the node that translocates this activity "juice" which could cause the new bud (not at a node) to sit there until the plant deems it's importance and initiates growth?

One other thing Bonhe, after reading through your comments you keep bringing up flowering stuff, am I wrong to think this is for branch placement, is bud grafting only good for basically grafting flowers? I'm under the assumption this is for vegetative growth, am I wrong?

 

[bonhe]

cbroad,

Yes, for the example but not necessarily.
The reason I asked is that if the scion came from the same tree, I don't think we need to bud grafting there since you already have an axillary (lateral) bud in the node area.

But my question is, what's the difference between an adventitious bud and a node?
Are you talking about adventitious bud or axillary (lateral) bud? I guessing you are talking about axillary bud!

Does the node give more activity and greater concentrations of hormones or is it the bud with the actual power?
The node will give more activity until the bud is fully operating!

If we "create" a "node" with bud grafting does that site now have more hormones (which means more activity) or is it the node that translocates this activity "juice" which could cause the new bud (not at a node) to sit there until the plant deems it's importance and initiates growth?
It is interesting thought. Yes, it is why I said the bud graft will quietly lay down until the end of winter when all of fluid movement is back again.

One other thing Bonhe, after reading through your comments you keep bringing up flowering stuff, am I wrong to think this is for branch placement, is bud grafting only good for basically grafting flowers? I'm under the assumption this is for vegetative growth, am I wrong?
No, you are not wrong. But the bud grafting can not be used for conifer because it technically does not have axillary bud to start with.
Bonhe

 

[0soyoung]

But the bud grafting can not be used for conifer because it technically does not have axillary bud to start with.

Not quite true. Tsuga, psedotsuga, for example, do.

 

[cbroad]

Thank you Bonhe, I love this kind of discussion.

The reason I asked is that if the scion came from the same tree, I don't think we need to bud grafting there since you already have an axillary (lateral) bud in the node area.

Say we have created a bend earlier in the design, but the outside of the bend is not at a node, we could graft a bud to the outside where we need it. So there wouldn't be any buds at that site until we graft one there. This could solve many design errors/flaws for noobs. But both branch grafts and bud grafts might take the same amount of time, so what's the point of bud grafting...? I don't know but you could ask then why not just graft a branch there, but I feel like a bud graft would be less invasive and maybe a little easier for someone without grafting experience.

Are you talking about adventitious bud or axillary (lateral) bud? I guessing you are talking about axillary bud!

No, I'm talking about adventitious buds, basically a bud not at the place we would find a bud normally. The implications are huge if this grafted bud originally dictates and initiates growth and hormone synthesis. We could use this technique to put branches where we want, heal wounds, grow sacrifice branches for thickening, etc.

As far as conifers, the presence of regular or axillary buds is a moot point because we can dictate where the buds are located (hypothetically).

Is the node the catalyst for energy until the emerging branch can take over and start returning energy?

Which is dominate, the node or the bud?

I'm going to summon @0soyoung because he seems to like to geek out with plant physiology like me. I'm curious on his take about which has the power, buds or nodes.

 

[cbroad]

Wow I just summoned you @0soyoung, that was quick, thanks for stopping by

 

[0soyoung]

My view is simply that grafting is the means of putting a branch or foliage exactly where you want it. IMHO, this means grafts will be placed in internodes, but it doesn't have to be that way. But on a species like acer palmatum, the irregularity in the stem at a node would make bud grafting unnecessarily difficult, I think.

Nodes are points where the generally are latent buds. Hence, points of auxin production that basically signals 'there's life up here'. Once a bud graft has taken, it provides that signal.

Enough geek?

 

[0soyoung]

Wow I just summoned you @0soyoung, that was quick, thanks for stopping by

Yes, I suddenly had this compelling urge!

 

[cbroad]

No not enough geek

 

[cbroad]

What does that imply for plants with adventitious buds? Could you not create artificial nodes this way and then they would act as regular buds, possibly then creating axillary buds?

 

[bonhe]

Not quite true. Tsuga, psedotsuga, for example, do.

Thanks. I don't know this.
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

cbroad,

Say we have created a bend earlier in the design, but the outside of the bend is not at a node, we could graft a bud to the outside where we need it. So there wouldn't be any buds at that site until we graft one there. This could solve many design errors/flaws for noobs.
I got it.

But both branch grafts and bud grafts might take the same amount of time, so what's the point of bud grafting...?
For me, bud graft will be much faster than side graft.

I don't know but you could ask then why not just graft a branch there, but I feel like a bud graft would be less invasive and maybe a little easier for someone without grafting experience.
Depending on the season, I choose different type of grafting.
1- In winter, I use side grafting
2- In summer, I use bud grafting. Besides, if someone gives you only one short branch for grafting (it frequent happens with the hard to find specimen and the owner is willing to give it when he/she is pruning the bonsai), you can make more graft with bud than side graft.

No, I'm talking about adventitious buds, basically a bud not at the place we would find a bud normally.
You are confusing me. I don't think I can perform bud grafting if I don't know where the bud is.

Bonhe

 

[cbroad]

side graft

I'm confused now, what do you mean by side graft?

You are confusing me. I don't think I can perform bud grafting if I don't know where the bud is.

I'm not sure we're on the same page anymore. I'm assuming with bud grafting we can cut off a bud (with cambium attached) from one plant and graft it arbitrarily onto a separate plant, more than likely on a spot where there is no node or existing bud. Maybe I'm missing something or am completely wrong about bud grafting. I haven't read up on it in a very long time, maybe I should do that...