Any potential for a literati oak?

[Wizeeerrrddd]

Any potential for a literati oak?

Added a quick sketch to show what angle I was thinking.

or any style?
what would you do with this material?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Gotta see the top.

 

[sorce]

I think it's a good idea.

A small winter canopy with an acorn holding on.

Sorce

 

[Wizeeerrrddd]

more of the tops, only made one higher up cut so far.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Literati, is not a style for a young, smooth bark tree. Your tree needs craggy old bark to pull off the Literati look. Literati is an ancient tree, barely clinging to life look. Your tree has big leaves, youthful looking bark, just is not good ''Literati" candidate.

Instead I would work for a graceful informal upright. Think tree at the edge of a stream, leaning out and reaching for more light. Here the younger smooth bark will go with this style. Branching can still be sparse, But I think a forest tree rather than Literati is the way to go.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Yes. Trunk has already good movement and bark will come in time. 2 or 3 I am developing as well. Ignore nay sayers. Time, patience will pay off. And it is not a material! It is a tree.

 

[Colorado]

I don’t think this will ever be a very good literati, due to the straight section in the trunk right above the kink....unless you chop to one of the lower branches and go from there.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Deciduous trees are generally not used as literati for two reasons:
1. In nature a deciduous tree would likely die if it deceived the immense beating from nature that produces literati naturally. Hence conifers are the best as these naturally survive such abuse better.
2. For the above reason something in the human consciousness refuses to easily accept the concept of a literati deciduous tree. Not that it cannot be done but rather that it is very, very challenging to convince the viewer.

Therefore I recommend a slanted or informal upright. Also oak are often best appreciated in early spring or winter as the leaf size tends to be problematic.

 

[Wizeeerrrddd]

Literati, is not a style for a young, smooth bark tree. Your tree needs craggy old bark to pull off the Literati look. Literati is an ancient tree, barely clinging to life look. Your tree has big leaves, youthful looking bark, just is not good ''Literati" candidate.

Instead I would work for a graceful informal upright. Think tree at the edge of a stream, leaning out and reaching for more light. Here the younger smooth bark will go with this style. Branching can still be sparse, But I think a forest tree rather than Literati is the way to go.

So if I was to go with creating a informal upright would you choose one of the three first branches and use that as the new leader and develop lower branches while its planted in the ground or would you keep all three branches?

I could pull the branches down and create a weeping style since the trunk is quite tall. I'm not saying it would look good, just a little interesting

 

[Wizeeerrrddd]

I don’t think this will ever be a very good literati, due to the straight section in the trunk right above the kink....unless you chop to one of the lower branches and go from there.

Yup thats what I was thinking, I wasnt planning on creating a literati instantly I was thinking 5 or so years on.
I would have to try air layer that straight part out, oaks can be a bit annoying with air layers though so ive read

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If this were my tree, I would cut the trunk above the 3rd branch. I would at the same time shorten all three branches to two or three inter-nodes. Then I would let the tree grow wild for 2 years. Hopefully the trunk chop and the branch prune, all done the same day, will force buds to sprout lower on the trunk.

I think for the "finished design" of this tree, none of the existing branches would be used, I think you need this tree to get "bushy" in order to have better choices for future design.

Oaks take significant amounts of time to develop. This tree is 10 or more years away from being "show ready". No reason to not work toward it. That is why I would do the pruning next spring or summer, and then give it 2 years to back bud and grow out. Then the third year I'd dig it up, do my root work, 4th or 5th year would be the FIRST TIME, I would actually style the tree, if the previous work was successful at giving me better choices .

I'm not dogging your tree, I would put the time into growing it out. Right now I am in my 5th winter for a similar uninspiring looking bur oak. No where near ready to style, but I am putting the time in to bulk it up. In time oaks make great bonsai, but they are a 10 to 20 year project, not a 3 years and done tree.

 

[rockm]

Hahhahahahah. "Bark will come with time." yeah, ALOT of Freaking time ;-) . Bark decent enough for a passable literati trunk (which are noted for rugged grace) will take literally a decade. Probably three if the tree is kept in a container.

Oak is grown for its aged appearance. If you're going to use one for a literati, it should look OLD, not middle aged.

If this were mine, I'd also look to bulk up the trunk...

 

[Wizeeerrrddd]

If this were my tree, I would cut the trunk above the 3rd branch. I would at the same time shorten all three branches to two or three inter-nodes. Then I would let the tree grow wild for 2 years. Hopefully the trunk chop and the branch prune, all done the same day, will force buds to sprout lower on the trunk.

I think for the "finished design" of this tree, none of the existing branches would be used, I think you need this tree to get "bushy" in order to have better choices for future design.

Oaks take significant amounts of time to develop. This tree is 10 or more years away from being "show ready". No reason to not work toward it. That is why I would do the pruning next spring or summer, and then give it 2 years to back bud and grow out. Then the third year I'd dig it up, do my root work, 4th or 5th year would be the FIRST TIME, I would actually style the tree, if the previous work was successful at giving me better choices .

I'm not dogging your tree, I would put the time into growing it out. Right now I am in my 5th winter for a similar uninspiring looking bur oak. No where near ready to style, but I am putting the time in to bulk it up. In time oaks make great bonsai, but they are a 10 to 20 year project, not a 3 years and done tree.

Okay thanks, ill stick to how you would develop it for now and see what happens.

The tree was collected this year, would you still do all the cuts this spring or let it grow a year first?
I should of made the major cuts when I collected at its healthiest but I wasnt sure on what I was going to do with it?


This sycamore was also collected this year, going to start focusing on the roots and base with this one.
Itll look decent with a thicker nebari, me thinks

 

[sorce]

If a Literati tree is defined as a tree clinging to life with as little foliage as possible, which it isn't, but if it was, why couldn't a Deciduous tree have an amount of foliage to keep it barely alive?

I find it funny that normally a trunk like this gets cut to the ground but we are entertaining a tree other than literati with a trunk that has no taper for 2 or 3 feet, which is only characteristic of literati.

Best redeeming qualities all scream literati, good choice in the first place.

What's a decade?

What's your type of Selfish?

What's 3 decades?

The way I see it, you have a 75% chance of creating a good literati in 30 years.

And a 75% chance of creating a shitty other tree in thirty years.

I don't know if @Wizeeerrrddd is a Snoop dog "Weird" or "wizard"....

Either one doesn't conform, don't conform.
Or do, as far as what the tree wants, cuz, this tree should be a Literati or burned (undiscussed).

Sorce

 

[rockm]

If a Literati tree is defined as a tree clinging to life with as little foliage as possible, which it isn't, but if it was, why couldn't a Deciduous tree have an amount of foliage to keep it barely alive?

I find it funny that normally a trunk like this gets cut to the ground but we are entertaining a tree other than literati with a trunk that has no taper for 2 or 3 feet, which is only characteristic of literati.

Best redeeming qualities all scream literati, good choice in the first place.

What's a decade?

What's your type of Selfish?

What's 3 decades?

The way I see it, you have a 75% chance of creating a good literati in 30 years.

And a 75% chance of creating a shitty other tree in thirty years.

I don't know if @Wizeeerrrddd is a Snoop dog "Weird" or "wizard"....

Either one doesn't conform, don't conform.
Or do, as far as what the tree wants, cuz, this tree should be a Literati or burned (undiscussed).

Sorce

"And a 75% chance of creating a shitty other tree in thirty years."

Actually, the odds are opposite. In 30 years, this trunk grown in ground and reduced several times has some potential as an informal upright...thirty years from now, it's literati potential will be greatly diminished. For an informal upright, those odds get better with time...

 

[sorce]

thirty years from now, it's literati potential will be greatly diminished

How so?

It can still have a taper less bendy trunk, only with bark, and a very convincing canopy, just small enough to be considered Literati.

Successive chops will take way longer.

But I am arguing a thing you haven't said, the thing where we are still using all that old trunk.

I believe we agree it should be chopped?

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Okay thanks, ill stick to how you would develop it for now and see what happens.

The tree was collected this year, would you still do all the cuts this spring or let it grow a year first?
I should of made the major cuts when I collected at its healthiest but I wasnt sure on what I was going to do with it?


This sycamore was also collected this year, going to start focusing on the roots and base with this one.
Itll look decent with a thicker nebari, me thinks

Myself, I would wait to do the trunk chop until a week or more after the summer solstice. Depending on what I see. If it is strong leafing out in spring, I'd chop maybe July 4th. (About 2 weeks after summer solstice). If it is weak, only puts out a few leaves, I would wait until July 2021 to decide.

It is the health of the tree in front of you that matters. Always ask yourself if the tree is healthy enough to tolerate what you want to do. If you are not sure, put it off, and work on improving tree health.

 

[Wizeeerrrddd]

Just done a quick sketch of what I had in mind,
If someone could help me out with a better sketch please do

Like @sorce said either way (literati or not literati) will take me years, healing cuts and developing the bark.
So I might as well make a bold decision and style it how I believe is best for the tree

 

[sorce]

My biggest, or only frustration with this whole thing is....

The actions are quite both...ish...

Keep the three branches, chop above them, start building your right small canopy from them....as you would a informal upright....

But make it a convincing small Deciduous literati canopy.

I feel our biggest problems are not accepting the Deciduous literati definition, realizing the Literati trunk, and not being able to put the 2 together.

I feel you have a coniferous Literati canopy in that virt.

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

Interesting tree and post. I hope we can watch it develope regardl;ess of what route you take with it.