Antique Chinese Bonsai Pots as Investment?

[yenling83]

Kind of a funny topic that I was thinking about today especially because I got another antique Chinese Pot today in the mail is are quality Antique Chinese Bonsai Pots a good investment? What type of appreciation in value do you think you could get per year?

Some Reasons Why I think they are:
-There is a finite amount of them
-Bonsai will likely increase in popularity over the next thirty years
-Prices for quality trees are on the rise(thinking Bonsai Mirai)

I'd tell anyone to invest wisely in Real Estate before thinking about putting significant money into Antique pots, but hey... maybe this conversation could help me convince my wife to let me buy some more

Also, while we're on the topic, please post them if you got them!

 

[Anthony]

One problem ------------- fakes

China has a law that does not allow objects over 100 years to leave her land [ early Ebay days ]
So how do you validate authenticity, and not be a smuggler ?

Better to find a great local potter and buy those wares.
Good Day
Anthony

* As I was taught, buy what you like when buying old things, and forget the re-sale.
Pass onto family as heirlooms.
The joy / beauty is in ------------ Grand dad once owned this and he was .......................

Of course your children's education comes first yadda yadda yadda ................................

 

[Adair M]

Anthony, we're getting them from Japan.

The Chinese are going to Japan and buying them and taking them back to China!

Yengling, the problem becomes when you get sentimentally attached to it. Could you sell it, even if it has greatly appreciated?

I was teaching a bonsai class, and a customer who has bought some expensive bonsai saw a couple of my trees I brought in as examples of refined bonsai. One was my avatar JBP. He wanted to buy it. He said "name your price". And knowing the guy's reputation, he would have accepted whatever price I put on it! But I declined, no way could I sell that tree. It has taught me too much!

 

[Dav4]

Let's hope so... particularly if my wife ever figures out how much I actually have in that aspect of the hobby. I suspect the higher end antiques will definitely appreciate in value over time as they are already sought after now, but I'm not sure about the lower end, more common antique pots (which make up the VAST majority of my collection- to make money you gotta have money I guess)

 

[Adair M]

Let's hope so... particularly if my wife ever figures out how much I actually have in that aspect of the hobby. I suspect the higher end antiques will definitely appreciate in value over time as they are already sought after now, but I'm not sure about the lower end, more common antique pots (which make up the VAST majority of my collection- to make money you gotta have money I guess)

Dav4 has Matty O on speed dial!

 

[Dav4]

Dav4 has Matty O on speed dial!

No, no... it's actually the other way around... seriously... he HAS my number!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Dav4 has Matty O on speed dial!

LOL now THAT'S funny!

 

[yenling83]

@Anthony -I've never purchased a Chinese Antique pot from China, only in Japan and in the US. Years back, the Japanese bought a giant chunk of the Chinese Antique pots from China when the Chinese economy and people were not as well off. Now it seems that many wealthy Chinese are buying their Antique pots back from Japan. As for the whole fake thing, i'm not an expert but there are ways to distinguish fake patina and I think it's more about faking certain famous artists like Tofukuji than antique pots.

@Adair M Yes, every one get's attached to certain trees, but for me there's always a price that I'd sell it for. I want to know how high this, "name your price" guy would have gone. I can forget about a tree, if it will allow me to purchase an even better quality one

@Dav4 I think you are correct that the highest end ceramic containers will appreciate in value the most. I think one of the keys to a rise in value of trees and pots is having high end shows/competitions. People are naturally competitive and want to win. If our shows like the National Show and Artisans cup continue to grow, I think that will raise prices across the board for quality everything. My small Antique pot collection is all lower to mid grade as well. I would still consider these quality and guess we will see them worth 1.5X in 10 years, 2-3X in 20 years.

Glad to hear you guys have a solid relationship with your Pot Dealer Matty O

 

[Dav4]

My antique Chinese "white whale" has been a shudei clay rectangle about 12" wide with windows and cloud feet. Matt would get one in at least once a year, but the cost was steep- around $1200 for the last one if I recall- and I never had the dough when he had the pot. Anyway, he hasn't had one of those in over 2 years and I'm not holding my breath he'll get another one any time soon... and I still don't have the dough.

 

[yenling83]

My antique Chinese "white whale" has been a shudei clay rectangle about 12" wide with windows and cloud feet. Matt would get one in at least once a year, but the cost was steep- around $1200 for the last one if I recall- and I never had the dough when he had the pot. Anyway, he hasn't had one of those in over 2 years and I'm not holding my breath he'll get another one any time soon... and I still don't have the dough.

Sell a kid, donate blood, or whatever it takes! White Whale might never come back around. Do you have a pic of this pot?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Yeah, that's what I tell my wife...it's an investment. She plays along.
ShouYouKouSei kiln:

Unstamped, now in Kathy Shaner's collection:

Old yellow:

I'm chasing a round Namako, 13.5", round for this ume:

Honestly, I don't think they're a great investment, because the market is relatively obscure, but I also don't think they're going down.

 

[Dav4]

Sell a kid, donate blood, or whatever it takes! White Whale might never come back around. Do you have a pic of this pot?

I may have a picture somewhere, but this is the closest I could find of the general style and color on line

 

[mattspinniken]

Prices for quality trees are on the rise(thinking Bonsai Mirai)

Interesting, I have not thought about this but you are probably right. Do others think that Bonsai Mirai will raise the bar enough to increase the cost of quality trees in the U.S.? I think good quality trees that we have here are mostly under priced currently.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

Just a provoking thought......why is it Ryan Neil will raise the bar? There has to be a demand to create an increase prices.

I could be wrong but Ryan Neil is striving for high quality to create a high demand for his trees.

To create an overall higher price in bonsai we, "American Bonsai", would need an increase in bonsai enthusiasts to create that demand. Will it happen? I think energetic individuals such as Ryan Neil will help.
Adair said it best about his pots," the market is obscure, but i dont think the price go down."

As a final statement....... many didn't think investing in the internet was good either

 

[M. Frary]

Do others think that Bonsai Mirai will raise the bar enough to increase the cost of quality trees in the U.S.? I

I really hope not.
They're already expensive enough.
But what he might do is to make people who collect trees think they're sitting on a gold mine and dig bunches to get in on it. Then when everybody has lots and can't sell them the prices will maybe even go down.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Adair said it best about his pots," the market is obscure, but i dont think the price go down."

Who???

 

[Dav4]

Me. I'm Adair!!

 

[Starfox]

Funny you bring this up, only yesterday a place in Spain posted their new shipment of old Chinese pots. Now I don't mind putting some money into pots but aside from one of them they are even a bit steep for me.
Shame they have a 3 for 2 sale on at the moment as well.

 

[M. Frary]

Me. I'm Adair!!

Then who's Brian?

 

[mattspinniken]

I really hope not.
They're already expensive enough.
But what he might do is to make people who collect trees think they're sitting on a gold mine and dig bunches to get in on it. Then when everybody has lots and can't sell them the prices will maybe even go down.

Good quality field grown and finding the best yamadori takes so much time and energy people that do it probably make very little per hour. Things could get pretty interesting if more people could make money at it.