An open letter to Mr. Nut

[Graydon]

I think it's time to bring this topic up for discussion. I apologize in advance if I insult you Mr. Nut as I really do believe you have a great site here but...

I suggest (with all due respect) that the Karaoke Bar section of the forum be closed or locked for good. It's for the most part useless and if closed it would focus everyone's energy back on bonsai. As you have posted in "character assassinations" you are beginning to control actions a bit. I believe that a move such as I suggest would go great lengths to help strengthen and solidify the site and all of our focus back on to bonsai. I would call it a leave your crap and baggage at the door and try to discuss bonsai position.

I'm going to be honest here, and I may speak for other or I may insult others but I have no desire to continue to come to a forum that has a majority of posts that are completely irrelevant to bonsai. I came here to escape what I deemed as useless dribble on the other forums. I thought I had found an oasis here in the beginning. Great discussions of all aspects of bonsai culture. High brow stuff. Great posters and opinions from experts all over the world. A real pleasure to be here, to join the discussions. To learn.

And then it began to slip a bit.

235 threads in karaoke bar with 4778 posts. Nothing meaningful related to bonsai but some of the most drug out arguments I have ever seen (and taken part in I am afraid). That count trumps everything but general discussions.

End it. It will be for the good of the site.

Not ending it really suggests to me that you want more than just a bonsai forum. I would understand that stance, although I can't support it nor would I find it acceptable to participate in such a forum. It's currently diluted by bitterness and arguments that often take the best posters and spin them off in to what appear to be cultural, socioeconomic or political lines in the sand that we seem to have the need to enforce to the end of time.

Those bitter arguments make me dislike other members (and I can't be alone on that one). What I want to do is like the other members. Learn from them. Share things with them.

I can leave the baggage at the door and I bet other can as well. This could be a place where we all to come to escape the daily grind of politics, work, financial issues or anything else troubling us and just enjoy bonsai. Like it was in the beginning. To do this we need your help.

Or perhaps no forums would be better for me.

Thanks.

 

[FrankP999]

I second the suggestion to close the non-bonsai section. It will improve the site immensly along with my enjoyment of more focused bonsai information. I realize no one has to step into the Bar area, but the tone of discussions there affects the entire site in my opinion.

Frank

 

[grouper52]

I also agree. The idea of a broader site was a good one, but reality got in the way, and no amount of wishful thinking trumps reality.

 

[crhabq]

Graydon,
What you said!
I'm 100% behind that.
The only opinions, beliefs, etc., that I haved changed or have any interest in changing have all been bonsai related.
I've lurked on the site for a while and posted a little. I searched and learned a lot. Nowadays I search new postings and try to advoid the non-bonsai related ones but....
Surely there are internet sites for posting political, religiuous, or just plain knownothing commets.
We are mostly, more or less, grown ups here, and I doubt that the internet has changed many peoples fundamental values. Why spend so much bandwidth on so much drivel?
I agree with FrankP999, this should make the tone of the forum more with in keeping with the pursuit of bonsai itself.
Come on Bnut -- admin with an eye to some wabi, admin in the direction of sabi.
Ray

 

[Ang3lfir3]

This could be a place where we all to come to escape the daily grind of politics....

You do remember this is a Bonsai forum right? Politics is part of bonsai... (reaching for asbestous suit)


Closing the Karaoke bar won't do anything more than making drinking and driving illegal has done to completely irradicate that behaviour. Closing the section that invites you to put the non-bonsai related topics you wish to discuss broadly with a group of people you have something in common with only invites those discussions to flow over into other forums and other threads. The best thing to do is avoid the Karaoke bar... check the threads before reading them... look at the section... avoid it completely.

You are just as much responsible for your own enjoyment of the forum as anyone else. Just like the radio or the TV... you have a choice... free will and all.

Not that I am a proponent of anything that goes on there since I can't remember ever reading a thread there.

The answer lies in Moderation... and I don't mean me drinking less often... an active group of forum moderators who have _experience_ and dedication can easily change the feeling of the forum. Are there moderators here at BN? what exactly do they do? these are questions you should be concerning yourself with... not asking to have the Karaoke bar shutdown. It is the job of the moderators to keep the threads on track and to keep the forum focused. They can do so easily if given the proper authority (not to be abused). Its as simple as that... proper janitors/referees if you would of the forums.

Those are my thoughts... but I'm sure no one cares

 

[Rick Moquin]

Those are my thoughts... but I'm sure no one cares

... not to pick on Eric, but this displayed negativity is shared by many I am sure.

Is closing the karaoke bar the solution? Perhaps but until someone takes an active interest in this site, it is no more than the Jerry Springer show, totally pointless and useless.

I like Eric's closing remarks because I have seen some many fine folks develop attitudes after being afflicted by the Nut virus.

 

[Vance Wood]

You do remember this is a Bonsai forum right? Politics is part of bonsai... (reaching for asbestous suit)


Closing the Karaoke bar won't do anything more than making drinking and driving illegal has done to completely irradicate that behaviour. Closing the section that invites you to put the non-bonsai related topics you wish to discuss broadly with a group of people you have something in common with only invites those discussions to flow over into other forums and other threads. The best thing to do is avoid the Karaoke bar... check the threads before reading them... look at the section... avoid it completely.

You are just as much responsible for your own enjoyment of the forum as anyone else. Just like the radio or the TV... you have a choice... free will and all.

Not that I am a proponent of anything that goes on there since I can't remember ever reading a thread there.

The answer lies in Moderation... and I don't mean me drinking less often... an active group of forum moderators who have _experience_ and dedication can easily change the feeling of the forum. Are there moderators here at BN? what exactly do they do? these are questions you should be concerning yourself with... not asking to have the Karaoke bar shutdown. It is the job of the moderators to keep the threads on track and to keep the forum focused. They can do so easily if given the proper authority (not to be abused). Its as simple as that... proper janitors/referees if you would of the forums.

Those are my thoughts... but I'm sure no one cares

I agree. The simple truth is if you don't like the Karaoke Bar don't go there. What's so hard about that? Personally; I don't particularly like Sushi but I am not out there picketing to have all sushi bars closed down. You know what I do?------I DON'T GO TO THEM.

So if Bnut closes the Karaoke Bar how is that going to improve your bonsai? If Bnut does not close the Karaoke bar how is that going to impact your bonsai? The truth? Not one little bit either way. If some of you want to play the old " I'm going to take my dollies and go home" bit? How is that going to help your bonsai? Yes there are other sites you can go to.

Guess what? You can go there now or go there never, how does the existence of the Karaoke bar change that? The short of it is just like television cable menus. If you don't like the home shopping network, or any of the other networks don't go to them. I cannot count how many times in a week I ignore the Home Shopping Network. See here is the dirty little secret.

There are only two ways you can get pulled into the Karaoke bar: One; you have already participated in one of the discussions there and receive an automatic notification if there is a new response. Two; you searched the new posts menu, discovered that there has been something new in the Karaoke bar and chose to check it out. Bnut does not automatically send everyone on the list every update to every post in the Karaoke bar. You got there all by your selves.

Grow up people.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I gather that for 5-6 of the above posters there was something posted in Karaoke that you don't agree with. The usual response by a certain category of people to something they don't like is to make a law against it. Since they can't make a law to do a way with one category on the Forum that they don't like the next move is to try and get it banned. Sounds much like what our current government administration has in the pipeline for certain radio stations that they don't like.

Even if you don't visit that particular forum you just know that there is something gonna be said there that you don't agree with and just can't stand to let it happen, is that the problem?

As Vance so clearly said, if you don't like to drink iced tea, don't buy iced tea. If you don't like Wopper Burgers then don't go to the Burger King. And if you don't like the discussions on the Karaoke Forum then don't click on the cottn' pickn' button! It will not effect your efforts to raise or educate yourself about bonsai one little bit if you do or don't visit that forum.

 

[rockm]

If you don't like drinking, don't go into the bar...

If you go into the bar, don't be shocked by all the drinking and drunken fools

Throw the drunken fools out of the bar and they will stumble into your backyard and relieve themselves there.... At least if you have a bar, you can reasonably expect them to keep their sins within its doors.

 

[Rick Moquin]

If you don't like sushi, stay out of sushi bars, great metaphor when used in conjunction with the karaoke bar. However, the unhealthy interactions that take place in the karaoke bar have a way of spilling over to the rest of the site, not dissimilar to what Graydon mentioned.

 

[greerhw]

Check out the action on Bonsai only forums and then check out the action here, if I had to to visit Bonsai only forums, I'd be watching a lot more TV. At the very least coming here exposes people to bonsai posts and lets them vent when they feel the need to after a hard day at work. I don't do Tropicals, so I never ever read posts about them, but I not upset that they have a forum to go to.


keep it green,
Harry

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

If you don't like sushi, stay out of sushi bars, great metaphor when used in conjunction with the karaoke bar. However, the unhealthy interactions that take place in the karaoke bar have a way of spilling over to the rest of the site, not dissimilar to what Graydon mentioned.

Would you mean this?

"235 threads in karaoke bar with 4778 posts. Nothing meaningful related to bonsai but some of the most drug out arguments I have ever seen (and taken part in I am afraid). That count trumps everything but general discussions."

I think Graydon has simply pointed out that there is one very popular forum on this web site that he or she doesn't like. He or she also points out that he or she visits the site and sounds like kind of regularly. Again it would seem that if you can't make a law to do away with something you don't agree with the solution is to try and get it banned. An attempt to substitute a minority opinion on to the majority.

 

[greerhw]

For those that don't have willpower to make their own decisions, don't give me a choice or I can't help myself. I NEVER watch ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC news, because I have a choice not to and I take advantage of it.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[rockm]

"However, the unhealthy interactions that take place in the karaoke bar have a way of spilling over to the rest of the site, not dissimilar to what Graydon mentioned."

I've been participating in online bonsai communities for a very long time. Every one of them has had people that simply don't get along. Some of those conflict have been extremely nasty. A while ago, on a venerable forum, one member had another fired from his job for posting to the site while on company time and informed his employer that the poster drank excessively. This happened because of a BONSAI related discussion...

Nasty? Ugly? You bet... that was over ten years ago, if I remember.

The point is, you're not going to stop animosity. Allowing a specific place to vent such crap might not be a real bad thing.

 

[Treebeard]

...However, the unhealthy interactions that take place in the karaoke bar have a way of spilling over to the rest of the site, not dissimilar to what Graydon mentioned.

Exactly. And when the bad feeling generated in the bar spills into a thread on bonsai, and someone complains, we are told "if you don't like what you're reading, don't read it", which can quite reasonably be alternatively stated "if you don't like what you've just read, you shouldn't have read it". Self-evidently nonsense.

A thread is started on trident techniques... 5 posts in, someone gets out of their pram over a bit of afters from the bar... based on "if you don't like it, don't read it" you boycott the thread... 20 posts in it gets back to bonsai again, but you've boycotted the thread so miss out on valuable information.

So if you don't want to be reading the spill-over from the bar you have no choice but to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Chris

 

[greerhw]

The point is, you're not going to stop animosity. Allowing a specific place to vent such crap might not be a real bad thing.[/QUOTE]


It might save your marriage.......................

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Rick Moquin]

Would you mean this?

"235 threads in karaoke bar with 4778 posts. Nothing meaningful related to bonsai but some of the most drug out arguments I have ever seen (and taken part in I am afraid). That count trumps everything but general discussions."

... no I mean this

Throw the drunken fools out of the bar and they will stumble into your backyard and relieve themselves there.... At least if you have a bar, you can reasonably expect them to keep their sins within its doors.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Folks, I am not going to close the karaoke bar. Here's why:

(1) Just because a forum is labeled as being for "off-topic" content, does not mean it has to be negative. People can talk about their favorite manga comic, koi exhibition, or renting condos in Kauai. It doesn't have to be about contentious content. It is intended to be a place where FRIENDS can hang out and talk about things unrelated to bonsai. I need a space like this on the site, else it is common for the general forum to start to attract off-topic posts.

(2) As people have pointed out, you don't need to read or post there. I am a huge believer in personal choice. I would rather allow people choice, and they make the decision, than remove the choice because I can't trust them (or they can't trust themselves).

(3) I like to disagree with people. It is the only way I learn anything. If I wanted to surround myself for my entire life with people who think exactly like I do, what would be the point? Even though I may not agree with 100% of what you say, I often find my horizons expanding because I hear you say it. I'm from a big family. We argue all the time. But we still love each other afterwards.

(4) As far as moderation goes, I have not yet found someone who I feel will be a good fit for the site. I would love to have help, but it is a reality that moderated sites often take on the personalities of the moderators. Here there is only me at this point, and though I may frustrate people at times, I have tried to avoid giving people reason to feel I am taking sides.

 

[Graydon]

Cool. Thanks for your response. As I mentioned I am good either way but I just can't deal with the non bonsai stuff anymore. I attempted to see if you would revert back to how it was before the karaoke bar. Few of us here now remember that time. How long ago was that? 2 or 3 years?

If we meet at another GSBF give me a shout. I'll buy the first round of beers. The second ones too. Love chatting with you and checking out your trees. You are a good guy.

To everyone else - thanks. I love you all and share your passions for bonsai but I am afraid you passions for non bonsai matters have driven me away. It's really no loss as I stopped contributing a long time ago.

Graydon

 

[R_F]

Folks, I am not going to close the karaoke bar. Here's why:

(1) Just because a forum is labeled as being for "off-topic" content, does not mean it has to be negative. People can talk about their favorite manga comic, koi exhibition, or renting condos in Kauai. It doesn't have to be about contentious content. It is intended to be a place where FRIENDS can hang out and talk about things unrelated to bonsai. I need a space like this on the site, else it is common for the general forum to start to attract off-topic posts.

(2) As people have pointed out, you don't need to read or post there. I am a huge believer in personal choice. I would rather allow people choice, and they make the decision, than remove the choice because I can't trust them (or they can't trust themselves).

(3) I like to disagree with people. It is the only way I learn anything. If I wanted to surround myself for my entire life with people who think exactly like I do, what would be the point? Even though I may not agree with 100% of what you say, I often find my horizons expanding because I hear you say it. I'm from a big family. We argue all the time. But we still love each other afterwards.

(4) As far as moderation goes, I have not yet found someone who I feel will be a good fit for the site. I would love to have help, but it is a reality that moderated sites often take on the personalities of the moderators. Here there is only me at this point, and though I may frustrate people at times, I have tried to avoid giving people reason to feel I am taking sides.

Well Said. I agree whole heartedly.

I do however find it funny that highly active people on the forum suddenly stop commenting on trees outside of the karaoke bar if it belongs to some one they have disagreed with in the past. Coincidence? I doubt it. That is my only regret in having posted in the karaoke bar....It seems those who claim to be "open" minded in the karaoke bar can be the most close minded out side of it.