Amethyst Falls American Wisteria in training...progression from 2014

[Cadillactaste]

From humble beginnings from a sucker/stick in ground...2014


Allowing it to grow a bit...

I was thinking a quirky cascade...but if my taste changed...to allow it to develop into something in another direction. So when other branching developed I did clip and grow on them. But wired the cascade in hopes developing a canopy at the end would make it a more defined cascade.





But noticed last year it wasn't as strong as the other style I was growing out. Pondered removal of the cascade branch back then...then thought no need to rush either direction. This year...it didn't wake up. On a Facebook group. Cascades were mentioned...and the strength in keeping the cascade with energy at the end. I didn't do that. I allowed the second direction style go full force in growing and it may have weakened the cascade branch in doing so.

So now...I am pondering a ground layer of just below the two main trunks...making a twin trunk. That is where my gerbil is sending me. I may change my mind once it goes into a pot and I have more control of angle planting in the pot.

Taken last night 2017...


The blooms aren't in the traditional sense...what we think of when we think wisteria. But a great size for bonsai. The base of the layer I'm pondering...is an inch think currently. And the thicker trunk is .60" so just a hair over half an inch. It needs to thicken more in ground before I even contemplate removal of it where it's located. In the meantime, it grows and thickens...and blooms profoundly though the year. Not a one time bloomer at all.

Smallest bloom found on mother tree...

Largest bloom found on mother tree.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice, and I like that this NA native species is more hardy than the Asian species of wisteria. Zone 4 is no problem.

The off and on all summer blooming is also a plus.

Only downside is the smaller flowers are less "wisteria like" in that the main charm of the Asian species is the long cascades of blossoms.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Thanks @Leo in N E Illinois since I have one with long blooms...the more petite is a great change for in the pot. Adds to the quirkiness/uniqueness off the tree itself. And you pegged a few of its crowning features in your post. But this has several more years in ground. I see no reason to rush it along because pot growing is much slower. I took a sucker and rooted it and grew it in the pot. It stayed a twig. Stuck it in the ground to climb a trellis now. But a great learning too as to same species and the benefits of ground growing.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I noticed blooms are larger this year,pondering if it's because it's a well established tree in the lawn now. (Still smaller than the Chinese variety.)

 

[Cadillactaste]

Dang...it blooms more than once a year...what is not to love about that!?! Other than...I have the same species mother tree in yard...and I just counted trees and projects...puts me at 24. When my head count is 25-27...I do need to ponder what trees I can thin from the collection at some point. I see leaving this in ground easily 5 years so I don't have to decide on it just yet. But see it making the list to get rid of at some point. Which will keep it in the ground so easy to not count technically.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Only 24 projects? you don't have enough, you need another 50. Anything less than 100 projects you are not trying hard enough. Just teasing. We all have our own time limits.

I have 100+ sticks in pots. I have about 10 to 20 that are finally moving past sticks in pots. I'm feeling crushed for time. Each of the more mature need full 6 or more hour sessions, I started wiring a hinoki in early October, still haven't finished, and it is only a shohin. It needs a full detail wiring out to every twig tip, and it really needs patience and a spell of uninterrupted time. Sometimes I'm not in a patient mood. So it waits, half wired.

Care for sticks in pots can be quick, a snip or two or one piece of wire and you are done for the year. More mature trees really take a lot more time. Just thinning one of my Satsuki's to 2 branches at a node, has evolved to a 2 hour chore. When I started 8 years ago on this one it took only 5 minutes. Funny how that changes.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Leo in N E Illinois ... total. I don't wish to get to the point it overwhelms me. I totally understand about the satsuki...My biggest thing is...when watering examine wire for it biting in.

 

[BigBen]

Very nice work on your Wisteria.
I re-potted all of my Amethyst Falls into much larger pots, hoping to thicken their trunks.
I’m just going to let them grow-out for a while, and see how it goes.

One question I have is how is the scent of your AF’s flowers?
Mine have a VERY odd almost unpleasant scent.
I’m wondering if soil PH has something to do with that???

 

[Cadillactaste]

Very nice work on your Wisteria.
I re-potted all of my Amethyst Falls into much larger pots, hoping to thicken their trunks.
I’m just going to let them grow-out for a while, and see how it goes.

One question I have is how is the scent of your AF’s flowers?
Mine have a VERY odd almost unpleasant scent.
I’m wondering if soil PH has something to do with that???

Thank you...I must say a large grow out box might be the way to go. The one I had in a pot remained a stick as the one in ground thickened amazingly.

See, I feel it must be a PH issue. Because our tree (larger mother yard tree) does not have a foul odor. It is quite fragrant...but have heard comment of both spectrums. Has to make one wonder if PH is the underlying factor.

 

[GrimLore]

American Wisteria Amethyst Falls has a bloom that smells like cat markings. If in proper PH of 6 - 7 and healthy it can be nasty at maturity...

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

American Wisteria Amethyst Falls has a bloom that smells like cat markings. If in proper PH of 6 - 7 and healthy it can be nasty at maturity...

Grimmy

My back yard didn't need Lyme when tested. Stated it was a bit high...so...that means really a lower number. Where as my water PH is neutral level (Researched it awhile ago. Forget the water guys number on that off hand.) A lower number = stronger PH correct? So...a higher PH (lower number) makes it not smell. If my side yard is the same as my back yard in PH level. Bare with me...trying to drink my coffee this morning.

 

[GrimLore]

What I am saying is American Wisteria Amethyst Falls will and should stink if healthy. Being it does and only during bloom it is popular anyways, just not for me... So many other types that don't smell bad...

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

What I am saying is American Wisteria Amethyst Falls will and should stink if healthy. Being it does and only during bloom it is popular anyways, just not for me... So many other types that don't smell bad...

Grimmy

Mine blooms like crazy...my PH is not neutral in the lawn...and for that, I am grateful because mine doesn't have a nasty odor...yet blooms like a dream. So just maybe...they can have more acid in the PH if just off a bit...and thrive and not smell. I know I won't try and change my PH...because I am living the best of both on this tree. Smells pretty and blooms significantly . If that is a poor tree...then so be it.

 

[GrimLore]

Mine blooms like crazy...my PH is not neutral in the lawn...and for that, I am grateful because mine doesn't have a nasty odor...yet blooms like a dream. So just maybe...they can have more acid in the PH if just off a bit...and thrive and not smell. I know I won't try and change my PH...because I am living the best of both on this tree. Smells pretty and blooms significantly . If that is a poor tree...then so be it.

If it does not smell bad it is not an Amethyst Falls but a Chinese or Japanese variety... No worries if it smells good. I was just pointing out the American Wisteria Amethyst Falls does stink, is more expensive in landscape, and I have never seen a Landscape place tell a customer.
Again, was just be informative in relation to that type

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

This tree follows the characteristics of an American variety...it blooms more than once...and has miniature blooms. Many think it's a lilac by its blooms. As are the leaves smaller than my Chinese wisteria.

Gardenweb had posts of theirs also not smelling. Not many...but some.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Fragrance does represent the genetics of the individual cultivar, clone or seedling, but it is not considered a ''conservative trait'' in that there can be wide variation in expression inside a species population. Fragrances can be as simple as a single compound, most floral fragrances are multiples, usually between 3 and 6 compounds, with outliers at both ends of the spectrum. The presence of the coding to make these compounds is one thing, inherited separately is the degree of expression (think concentration or intensity) and the ''turning on and off'' of the fragrance. This can vary from none, to light to heavy fragrance. Some species are daytime fragrant, some are night fragrant. I have an orchid which is only faintly fragrant in daylight, but from about 2 am to 5 am, before dawn is so heavily fragrant you would swear someone broke a quart bottle of Old Spice aftershave in the room. Weird, and I would not have noticed this, except for having to get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom.

Then there is the separate issue of the observer. People are only able to detect a limited set of chemicals. And not everyone has the same set of odor detecting cells. There is a different orchid, noted for smelling like ''chocolate''. Its fragrance is 5 component. People who can detect all 5 compounds describe it as a rich chocolate fragrance. Those that only smell 3 of the 5 say it smells like rusty iron pipes. Those that smell a different 3, think it is a vanilla nougat smell. Some that only smell one or two of the 5 think it smells a faint light floral. These are a group of people smelling the same plant at a fragrance judging contest.

So all said and done - fragrance alone can not be used to definitively separate one species from another. I suggest relax and stick to what the label said. The ''authorities'' will make statement about fragrance, and sometime even make the point that it is a ''determining factor'' in separating two species, but in fact modern taxonomy has moved past this as a significant trait.

There are two species of Wisteria native to the USA, Wisteria frutescens - the American Wisteria and Wisteria macrostachya - Kentucky wisteria

I read the descriptions of both species on Wikipedia and a couple other sources. The descriptions are gobbly gook, in that each source I went to contradicted the previous source. The only consistent difference I found was W. macrostachya could have longer flower racemes, to 12 inches, and W. frutescens has shorter flower racemes 2 to 6 inches. Fragrance comments were all over the map, from sweet to musky to none at all, and no consistency as to which of the two species was fragrant, and which wasn't. So relax, if the average length of your flower racemes is shorter than 6 inches, call it frutescens, if flower racemes average over 6 inches call it W. macrostachya. Enjoy the fragrance and continue to count yourself lucky.

 

[GrimLore]

There are two species of Wisteria native to the USA, Wisteria frutescens - the American Wisteria and Wisteria macrostachya - Kentucky wisteria

And as in Azaleas the list grows continually as it includes Texas Wisteria. In Texas, the Dam B cultivar has blue flowers in racemes and flowers late May to June and sporadically throughout the summer and fall. A cultivar called Nivea has white flowers, both frutescens.
Also, I am a VERY picky as Darlene knows with proper Identification. As to fragrance, that could be a whole other thread. Myself, in Wisteria, especially from a Nursery or large grower is a good indicator. I also have never seen in any plant a slight change in PH changing it.

Grimmy

 

[Cadillactaste]

Fragrance does represent the genetics of the individual cultivar, clone or seedling, but it is not considered a ''conservative trait'' in that there can be wide variation in expression inside a species population. Fragrances can be as simple as a single compound, most floral fragrances are multiples, usually between 3 and 6 compounds, with outliers at both ends of the spectrum. The presence of the coding to make these compounds is one thing, inherited separately is the degree of expression (think concentration or intensity) and the ''turning on and off'' of the fragrance. This can vary from none, to light to heavy fragrance. Some species are daytime fragrant, some are night fragrant. I have an orchid which is only faintly fragrant in daylight, but from about 2 am to 5 am, before dawn is so heavily fragrant you would swear someone broke a quart bottle of Old Spice aftershave in the room. Weird, and I would not have noticed this, except for having to get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom.

Then there is the separate issue of the observer. People are only able to detect a limited set of chemicals. And not everyone has the same set of odor detecting cells. There is a different orchid, noted for smelling like ''chocolate''. Its fragrance is 5 component. People who can detect all 5 compounds describe it as a rich chocolate fragrance. Those that only smell 3 of the 5 say it smells like rusty iron pipes. Those that smell a different 3, think it is a vanilla nougat smell. Some that only smell one or two of the 5 think it smells a faint light floral. These are a group of people smelling the same plant at a fragrance judging contest.

So all said and done - fragrance alone can not be used to definitively separate one species from another. I suggest relax and stick to what the label said. The ''authorities'' will make statement about fragrance, and sometime even make the point that it is a ''determining factor'' in separating two species, but in fact modern taxonomy has moved past this as a significant trait.

There are two species of Wisteria native to the USA, Wisteria frutescens - the American Wisteria and Wisteria macrostachya - Kentucky wisteria

I read the descriptions of both species on Wikipedia and a couple other sources. The descriptions are gobbly gook, in that each source I went to contradicted the previous source. The only consistent difference I found was W. macrostachya could have longer flower racemes, to 12 inches, and W. frutescens has shorter flower racemes 2 to 6 inches. Fragrance comments were all over the map, from sweet to musky to none at all, and no consistency as to which of the two species was fragrant, and which wasn't. So relax, if the average length of your flower racemes is shorter than 6 inches, call it frutescens, if flower racemes average over 6 inches call it W. macrostachya. Enjoy the fragrance and continue to count yourself lucky.

Very interesting indeed! Everyone swears it smells great. But, it has very small racemes. So...frutescens which is the Amythest Falls correct? Yes very short racemes. Which was the reason I thought to train the sucker. Bill V trains suckers...which was another reason I knew it was a good direction to go. So maybe not the PH issue at all. Yes, I read some say no scent at all. Which made no sense to me. Now...it does. Thanks for sharing!

 

[coh]

I have an Amethyst Falls that I got from Bill V. I don't care for the fragrance. It's not an over-powering "yuck", but kind of an "eeewww" to me, with hints of cat pee. As opposed to the Japanese and Chinese wisterias which are more like "mmmmmm...."

As for this particular sucker...is the original plant grafted? I know many of the specialty varieties of Japanese and Chinese wisterias are often grafted onto common rootstock, but am not sure about the Amethyst Falls. If it is a graft, the new sucker from the roots would be whatever the rootstock is, probably a common American wisteria as opposed to the cultivar Amethyst Falls. So there could be a fragrance difference (and differences in the characteristics of the flower clusters) because of that.

 

[Cadillactaste]

@coh not grafted...the sucker has the same size racemes as the mother tree. Which no one has stated stunk or was pee like scented. Most say it has a light sweet scent to it. No one has crawled down to the one in training for a whiff. Lol it had never been potted yet. What is the rush? Less hassle there.

Very cool you have one from Bill. Have you ever shared a photo of it?