advice wanted to thicken trunk - no outdoor soil available

[ward0]

Hello,

i'm new to bonsai and i have 2 trees that i want to thicken the trunk of . People advice me to put them in 20x20x6 pots to grow for a couple of years. and let everything grow until end of summer. Is this the correct way to go?

Can i just repot them in akadema with grint ? Or do i need other combination?

I live in Europe btw , so i can't place them outdoors yet maybe in hot summer.

What should i do to the branches to thicken the trunk? Cut them ?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Deleted member 17828]

Welcome!

it shouldn't really matter what substrate you use to repot your trees, as long as the trees are being provided with enough nutrients, water, and the roots do not rot. (from over watering)

To thicken certain parts of the tree, in your case the trunk, you would want to let the leading branch grow long, and then when the trunk has thickened to your satisfaction, you can chop the long leading branch back to where you want it.

Since trunk size really only increases when the tree gets taller, this process could take some time. In the meanwhile, don't expect your trees to as best as they could, mainly just let them grow.

 

[ward0]

Welcome!

it shouldn't really matter what substrate you use to repot your trees, as long as the trees are being provided with enough nutrients, water, and the roots do not rot. (from over watering)

To thicken certain parts of the tree, in your case the trunk, you would want to let the leading branch grow long, and then when the trunk has thickened to your satisfaction, you can chop the long leading branch back to where you want it.

Since trunk size really only increases when the tree gets taller, this process could take some time. In the meanwhile, don't expect your trees to as best as they could, mainly just let them grow.

Hello Kirk,

Thanks for the advice , I can use normal substrate that i buy from a garden shop? What should i look for? I don't specially need akadema then? ( for now atleast )

Thanks for the tip about growing part , but its good to increase the pot? Cause my current one is to small to develop good roots? ( hope i'm correct )

 

[milehigh_7]

substrate does matter a great deal

next read this article then read it again.
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

Will they be outside or inside? What you must provide, is oxygen to the roots as well as moisture and nutrients. Way overpotting tends to keep it wet and anaerobic for too long. So the only way to keep fresh oxygen is to be able to water frequently, which means very fast draining soil and pots that drain very well. To accomplish this, I use pond baskets and colanders.


Now let's have others jump in and correct or build on what I am saying. However, do read that link I posted.

 

[edprocoat]

Rob is right the mix is key. And tto get good growth you really need a deep pot to allow root growth. Most trees will produce as much up top as they have below. Plant it on a 7 or 10 gallon nursery pot, whichever you think you can lift. A 7 gallon nursery pot would probably be as large as 6-7 20x20x6 inch pots. Get a good draining mix and keep it watered and fed and they will grow like they are in the ground. In a pot once the roots hit the edges of the pot the tree growth will slow down dramatically. That's one reason why we can maintain a tree s design in a Bonsai pot, that and repotting - root trimming. With a good potting mix that will dry out daily an allow air in its almost like being ij the earth. A nursery container is best suited for this too as it has its openings on th bottom sides of the pots, developed for the nursery trade they know all about losing plants to root rot.

ed

 

[fredman]

What works faster for me is placing the grow pot recessed (about 4 or so inches) in soil, in another container filled with soil (potting soil will do for the bigger container). I sometimes drill a few extra holes in the bottom and sides of the pot to.
In the ground is best but seeing that you don't have that, a container will do well to. When you place the pot in the soil you get rid of the water table that can and do smother the new, fine roots that are responsible for taking up the nutrients. That is what slows growth the most....

 

[Giga]

People have given You great advice and I agree with them. Just in case you didn't know, that looks like a podocarpus and dwarf jade, both don't like cold weather so make sure you can move them whatever you do when weather gets too cold.

 

[ward0]

Oh my ! 1 word : THANKS!! ( to all of you ) else its 5 words.

My english about pots etc isn't that good but i love google pictures .. So i know what you guys mean.

Best advice for inside : Nursery pot or water pot? My guess is Nursery pot since you can control the water outlet more ?

Fredman : I don't get your advice fully , can someone please provide picture with what he means.

What can you guys provide for soil ? Pure akadema ? 4-6 grams?

milehigh_7 : I'l read your link , thanks for that. Maybe in the summer when its hot. I think they need constant 10-15 Degrees? ( sorry don't know F )

Giga : I was thinking the same after getting info about the plants

 

[MrFancyPlants]

You've gotten good advice so far. I like pumice and spaghnum for my indoor trees. For the podocarpus, If you have space outdoors, I would wait until the lows are staying above 10C start keeping I outside. Don't repot until there are signs of strong growth. I hear the roots can be finicky and not to remove more than 1/5 or the root mass in a go. Although my only podocarpus survived being lifted from a floodplain in Florida by myself. For thickening you should get some supplemental light and fertilizer. An LED chip and a CPU cooler and power supply can be had for relatively cheap.
This is a ficus which probably thickens faster than podocarpus, but sometimes you can make the trunk look thicker by shrinking the scale of the tree and/or using sacrifice growth to improve the taper.

 

[ward0]

You've gotten good advice so far. I like pumice and spaghnum for my indoor trees. For the podocarpus, If you have space outdoors, I would wait until the lows are staying above 10C start keeping I outside. Don't repot until there are signs of strong growth. I hear the roots can be finicky and not to remove more than 1/5 or the root mass in a go. Although my only podocarpus survived being lifted from a floodplain in Florida by myself. For thickening you should get some supplemental light and fertilizer. An LED chip and a CPU cooler and power supply can be had for relatively cheap.
This is a ficus which probably thickens faster than podocarpus, but sometimes you can make the trunk look thicker by shrinking the scale of the tree and/or using sacrifice growth to improve the taper.

Thanks for the info , i will call around to see if i can order spaghnum moss in belgium.

Do you need to get living moss ? Or can i get death moss ? Any online shop you can advice?

 

[ward0]

Update :

I have been looking for spaghnum the whole day but can't seem to find it online

I can find it here :

http://www.suprabazar.be/shop/18220162-101234-thickbox/zoo-med-sphagnum-moss-150gr.jpg

Can i buy something like this? Or am i looking at the wrong material.

If i can't find this i would buy Akadema and fill a nursery pot 100% with it. Do i need to add gravel or grint ? Or just the akadema and cover the water holes with a gaze

Thanks for the help here!

 

[edprocoat]

Ward0 that's Spaghnum moss alright but you do not want to use it on a Podocarpus. They do not like wet feet and are very prone to root rot, spaghnum moss is to keep the soil moist a bad match for your yew. They like acidic soil so get that , I think its miracid and use it occasionally. You would be better to use the pure akadama as it does dry bringing in oxygen to the roots as it dries down, the moss stays wet all the time, nice for Tropicals that like extra moisture or Bald Cypress and starting cuttings etc.

ed

 

[ward0]

Ward0 that's Spaghnum moss alright but you do not want to use it on a Podocarpus. They do not like wet feet and are very prone to root rot, spaghnum moss is to keep the soil moist a bad match for your yew. They like acidic soil so get that , I think its miracid and use it occasionally. You would be better to use the pure akadama as it does dry bringing in oxygen to the roots as it dries down, the moss stays wet all the time, nice for Tropicals that like extra moisture or Bald Cypress and starting cuttings etc.

ed

Hello Ed ,

And thanks for you reply , I'm sorry but i get lost in your answer. Your advising me not to use spaghnum ( that part i understand and why )

But then you advice me to get a acidic soil and / or 100% akadema.

Do you mean this for the Podocarpus or both ( including the dwarf jade )

Would i have to use 100% acidic soil then? like this product :

http://www.bonsai.de/shop/product_info2.php?products_id=1387?&language=en

or 70% acidic and 30% akadema ?

For the dwarf jade i can use 100% akadema? No grint or something ells needid?

Thanks for the reply.

Update :

Maybe i can use this product for the Podocarpus :

http://www.bonsaistudio.be/product/kanuma/

and akadema then for the dwarf jade?

both 100% or add something extra?

Update2 :

Alot of people ( found information here also ) , talk about Pumice ?

http://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

Update3 :

I'm sorry to bother you guys again But i want to give the soil to my trees that they need.

The problem is that its hard to know if the soil is water draining or not and decide from that point.

I want to order on this website :

http://www.bonsai.de/shop/product_info2.php?products_id=1379
http://www.bonsai.de/shop/product_info2.php?products_id=17549

Can i use any of these 2 on both?

 

[M. Frary]

Of the 2 choices of soil you posted I would go for the first. Can you say inorganic?

 

[Si Nguyen]

Hello WardO, and welcome to BonsaiNut.
You have gotten good advices already. I would encourage you to read as much as you can and join a local club and find a good bonsai friend. That's the best way to learn this art and to enjoy your trees even more.

Back to your 2 trees. They are very cute. I think one is a dwarf jade and the other is a podocarpus. Maybe they are recent imports from China. They should live outside. So when the weather is warmer, you should put them out.

The most dangerous time for a bonsai tree is when they are first brought home and kept inside for a few weeks. Most store-bought bonsai (imports from China) die in the first few weeks. There are many reasons why they die so soon. Bad soil is one reason but not the only one. The soil that is in the pot now is not the best, but it is safe for now. Just be careful and do not water it too often. Maybe you should only water them only once a week. The jade likes it dry. The podocarpus likes it a little less dry.

Here's how to water it:
1. water it deeply
2. look at the soil everyday
3. wait for the soil to dry out
4. water it deeply again.
Inside your house, this cycle maybe about every 7 days, but every tree and every house is different, so you have to really observe the soil and the tree closely. If the tree slowed down growth, of if the house's humidity, light, or temperature changes, then watering have to change too. The key thing is you have to look at your tree everyday, like it was a pet, and don't let it stand soaking in water. It will rot if you water it too much. That's what Milehigh and others were saying, but in a lot less words . A good bonsai soil will make this watering cycle a little bit easier. When you bring it outside, or when you've changed the soil, the water requirement would change again. Watering is probably the hardest thing to learn in the care of a bonsai.

Sorry to divert your thread from soil to water .
Good luck!

 

[ward0]

Hello WardO, and welcome to BonsaiNut.
You have gotten good advices already. I would encourage you to read as much as you can and join a local club and find a good bonsai friend. That's the best way to learn this art and to enjoy your trees even more.

Back to your 2 trees. They are very cute. I think one is a dwarf jade and the other is a podocarpus. Maybe they are recent imports from China. They should live outside. So when the weather is warmer, you should put them out.

The most dangerous time for a bonsai tree is when they are first brought home and kept inside for a few weeks. Most store-bought bonsai (imports from China) die in the first few weeks. There are many reasons why they die so soon. Bad soil is one reason but not the only one. The soil that is in the pot now is not the best, but it is safe for now. Just be careful and do not water it too often. Maybe you should only water them only once a week. The jade likes it dry. The podocarpus likes it a little less dry.

Here's how to water it:
1. water it deeply
2. look at the soil everyday
3. wait for the soil to dry out
4. water it deeply again.
Inside your house, this cycle maybe about every 7 days, but every tree and every house is different, so you have to really observe the soil and the tree closely. If the tree slowed down growth, of if the house's humidity, light, or temperature changes, then watering have to change too. The key thing is you have to look at your tree everyday, like it was a pet, and don't let it stand soaking in water. It will rot if you water it too much. That's what Milehigh and others were saying, but in a lot less words . A good bonsai soil will make this watering cycle a little bit easier. When you bring it outside, or when you've changed the soil, the water requirement would change again. Watering is probably the hardest thing to learn in the care of a bonsai.

Sorry to divert your thread from soil to water .
Good luck!

Hello,

And thank you for your great tips.

Of the 2 choices of soil you posted I would go for the first. Can you say inorganic?

I'm think i'm going for a mix of 50% vulcanic / 50% pumice.

 

[82dJohn]

Ward0 that's Spaghnum moss alright but you do not want to use it on a Podocarpus. They do not like wet feet and are very prone to root rot, spaghnum moss is to keep the soil moist a bad match for your yew. They like acidic soil so get that , I think its miracid and use it occasionally. You would be better to use the pure akadama as it does dry bringing in oxygen to the roots as it dries down, the moss stays wet all the time, nice for Tropicals that like extra moisture or Bald Cypress and starting cuttings etc.

ed

Grow my cypress in water mud most of the year

 

[bennybenben]

I would just let it grow until it is thick enough and then cut everything you don't need.

 

[ward0]

My order is placed , mindset is done.

a bag of lava / pumice.
going to go get a bag of quality potting soil ( anything special i should look for? )
sieve
root cleaner ( single hook )
chinese stick to get everything between the roots.
training pots 8gallon.

Still thinking of buying liquid equalizer , what NPK to pick.

 

[ward0]

I would just let it grow until it is thick enough and then cut everything you don't need.

Hello,

You mean the 'Clip and Grow' technique ??

Can i do that for 2 the trees?

I'm not sure what a dwarf jade and a podo carpus are ..

Podo carpus = family of conferir
dwarf jade = family of ?