5 years in Napa oil dry

[drew33998]

I wanted to share the results of an experiment I conducted. I potted 7 shimpaku cuttings in napa oil dry 5 years ago. They have been in the same pots largely untouched except for me drilling holes in them last year to try to help percolation. I have fed with Osmocoat, Miracle Grow slow release, Bone Meal, Blood Meal, and a product recently, called Alaska fertilizer or something like it, fish meal with seaweed extract I believe. Much to my surprise the oil dry was not broken down into dust as I thought it would be. The top inch or so was the only part that had broken down in 5 years and that was a result of the fertilizer and mechanical action of rain, wind and watering I believe.

 

[drew33998]

https://youtu.be/43Av1CGIAcs

 

[milehigh_7]

Good info! Thanks for showing this!

 

[M. Frary]

Much to my surprise the oil dry was not broken down into dust as I thought it would be

I could have told you that.
It's great stuff!

 

[Captnignit]

Great stuff, if you have any good close ups of the roots in the soil I'd be interested to see how dense they got. It's a little tough to see the details in the video.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Did you do a control? How was the root mass, any rot? What are your conclusion? Is it by luck that they’re simply alive, or is this the GOAT of soil components?

Not much of a control, but another example; these are 7 year old Itoigawa cuttings, struck in 2011, in the ground for 6 years in horrible soil, overwatered, and largely ignored. They have 2” trunks and are about 42” wide.

 

[drew33998]

I could have told you that.
It's great stuff!

I knew you were gonna say that. But I’ve always been the type that’s had to experience it for myself

 

[drew33998]

Did you do a control? How was the root mass, any rot? What are your conclusion? Is it by luck that they’re simply alive, or is this the GOAT of soil components?

Not much of a control, but another example; these are 7 year old Itoigawa cuttings, struck in 2011, in the ground for 6 years in horrible soil, overwatered, and largely ignored. They have 2” trunks and are about 42” wide.

View attachment 178339View attachment 178340View attachment 178341View attachment 178342

No def not the Goat. The only conclusion to draw was that it was not concrete. I still prefer APL as a mix for more finished trees. When you have 100 trees mostly on the growing stage oil dry works well. Even Ryan Neil has stated that the closest thing that we have to akadama is DE .

I do have one that I put in the ground that hasn’t grown at all but largely due to my super dry sandy soil. That is the only control. Also how far has the roots ranged from your itoigawa? Way too far to use anything in the next 10 years in a bonsai pot. So in essence I may actually catch your growth and retain roots closer to the trunk that are usable in the same amount of time

 

[drew33998]

I would say the roots did not super love it. My synopsis is that it would greatly benefit from the addition of lava. Oil dry by itself particle shape is angular and flatfish. Therefore it does not allow much airspace. Couple that with the fact that it holds a ton of water and you have a disproportionate balance of water that air. I have a few left to repot and I will take some close ups. Some things I have done this combat this is to water much less often. But I would not recommend to use it by itself . I would recommend at least a 50 percent of lava to oil dry balance.

 

[TN_Jim]

https://youtu.be/43Av1CGIAcs

Was that just a layer of lava you lined the bottom of the plastic pots with? What kept the DE from washing out through those large drain holes?

 

[drew33998]

I had large lava rocks covering the holes

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Also how far has the roots ranged from your itoigawa? Way too far to use anything in the next 10 years in a bonsai pot. So in essence I may actually catch your growth and retain roots closer to the trunk that are usable in the same amount of time

Not a chance. Junipers are super easy to containerize, and trees in pots will never catch trees in the ground. You should run an experiment and pop one of those in the ground and give them another 5 years.

 

[drew33998]

I already did. I will take photos. Much smaller than the containerized plants. Due largely in my opinion to our poor soil here.

Most of the junipers I have collected from landscape material that had 3"+ trunks also had roots that were four to five feet long with most feeders out at the end. Could be the difference in our soil though. I live in one of the highest areas in my county. The soil is very very poor. No organic matter and a very low cec ratio. Sand spurs are about the only thing that will grow at my house. A mile away at my family's house they live just go from a flood plain from wetlands. Their soil is awesome. And no I can't plant a bunch of trees over there.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjADegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw2hxWAbF1g6D5xjKAACYCgd.

In what way do you mean a tree in the ground is way ahead of one in a pot? We are talking about POT culture right, The establishment of a plethora of fine feeder roots close to the trunk that are going to be able to be utlized right away in a bonsai pot i dont think so. Doesnt Brent state that he prefers to grow in a pot because it is easier to control the environment.

In my case growing in the ground is not a good idea and actually sets me back versus ahead.

 

[drew33998]

Not a chance. Junipers are super easy to containerize, and trees in pots will never catch trees in the ground. You should run an experiment and pop one of those in the ground and give them another 5 years.

Dig that thing up and let's see what the soil and roots look like.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Dig that thing up and let's see what the soil and roots look like.

In time...

 

[drew33998]

Here are the photos of the tree in the ground versus one in the pot. Tree in ground grew maybe 1/8”caliper. It is about 3/8” caliper currently. The tree in the pot is about 1.25” caliper. Same duration of time. Some photos of my soil. I think that a lot of us miss that point when we say “just throw it in the ground it will grow three times as fast”. Well what if your soil is crap like mine. What if you can’t get water to it because of the location. I think we need to be more specific when guiding someone to put something in the ground. It’s much more than a set it and forget it.

 

[drew33998]

Oh and let me make myself clear. I do not recommend using oil dry 100 percent by itself. In my specific situation my water to oxygen ratio was horrible. I think a more rounded particle would help but not enough. You need to add lava or some other highly porous material to hold oxygen. So far APL has been the only soil that hits all three. But if you are like me and just want to grow a ton of plants for various reasons, that is too expensive.

I was watching a documentary on farming the other day. They were speaking of no till farming and also coupling pasture grazing with no till farming. A soil biologist said that In order for a soil to be at its highest capacity, there should be 50% air space or oxygen. Also the more amount of life in the soil, the more healthy and nutrient dense is it’s ability. I thought wow that is crazy how well that transfers to bonsai and pot culture. They also said that chemical fertilizers, fungicides, and pesticides kill the living matter in the soil. Super interesting. That got me to thinking, how many of us have 50 air space or oxygen in our soil? How many of us use chemical fertilizers? I don’t think we can get away from the pesticides and fungicides. One gentleman that is all about permaculture, his thing is called “back to eden”(Please look it up on YouTube) stated that his fruit trees do not get diseases. He attributes that to his soil health. Obviously growing a plant in a pot is going to be much weaker than it would be in the ground so it will be naturally more prone to disease and pests so I don’t think we can get away from the chemicals in that sense, but I think I will be making a move from chemical fertilizers. That’s one out of three items and it may not translate to being 33 percent better health but it should make a difference. Rant over

 

[TN_Jim]

Here are the photos of the tree in the ground versus one in the pot. Tree in ground grew maybe 1/8”caliper. It is about 3/8” caliper currently. The tree in the pot is about 1.25” caliper. Same duration of time. Some photos of my soil. I think that a lot of us miss that point when we say “just throw it in the ground it will grow three times as fast”. Well what if your soil is crap like mine. What if you can’t get water to it because of the location. I think we need to be more specific when guiding someone to put something in the ground. It’s much more than a set it and forget it.View attachment 178440View attachment 178441View attachment 178442View attachment 178439

yup.. that's...a handful of sand and volcano dust. A lot of dense red clay here. Have been really seeing the native trees around for why they are here lately. I know the grass is greener, but a yard full of sand..who needs to plant them in the earth, ways around! I am pretty sure folks were/are growing trees in Japan and elsewhere at higher altitudes and with similar soil conditions. While it is a tested technique to achieve a goal, is growing a tree in the ground for years even a traditional method of development for bonsai?
This is a unique informative time-worthy experiment that benefits my awareness of this topic. Thanks for that. Understanding the ability and strength of inorganic soil (especially 100%) in relation to traditional ol' humus dirt or organic/rock ratios has been a real learning curve over time. Change is good, adaptation seems better.
While I plan on using DE 34%, lava 33%, and pine bark 33% in the mix I am making for this spring, I am finally beginning to free myself from the cult of holding onto various types of predominantly organic mix.
Watering twice a day in Tennessee summers is not something I have the ability to do consistently. If anyone from my area or related ecosystems/states (or anyone) could recommend a different ratio of my three ingredients or help (conifer/deciduous?), I would appreciate it. Thanks much.

 

[M. Frary]

I knew you were gonna say that. But I’ve always been the type that’s had to experience it for myself

It's the best way actually. Good for you.

 

[drew33998]

yup.. that's...a handful of sand and volcano dust. A lot of dense red clay here. Have been really seeing the native trees around for why they are here lately. I know the grass is greener, but a yard full of sand..who needs to plant them in the earth, ways around! I am pretty sure folks were/are growing trees in Japan and elsewhere at higher altitudes and with similar soil conditions. While it is a tested technique to achieve a goal, is growing a tree in the ground for years even a traditional method of development for bonsai?
This is a unique informative time-worthy experiment that benefits my awareness of this topic. Thanks for that. Understanding the ability and strength of inorganic soil (especially 100%) in relation to traditional ol' humus dirt or organic/rock ratios has been a real learning curve over time. Change is good, adaptation seems better.
While I plan on using DE 34%, lava 33%, and pine bark 33% in the mix I am making for this spring, I am finally beginning to free myself from the cult of holding onto various types of predominantly organic mix.
Watering twice a day in Tennessee summers is not something I have the ability to do consistently. If anyone from my area or related ecosystems/states (or anyone) could recommend a different ratio of my three ingredients or help (conifer/deciduous?), I would appreciate it. Thanks much.

I think you should be fine. If you are concerned then perhaps just go with 2:1 DE or akadama to lava. Why use bark?