boonefrog
Yamadori
They are!
One of these Seigens is not like the other...
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clem
Omono
OK, that's a good explanation, and then we're touching on incompetence or intellectual dishonesty (selling a fake)
So it means that you are not 100% sure of the "seigen" cultivar you buy in the US ?
If that's the case, it's really sad because it means you have to import them to be sure, if it's even possible.
Because there's nothing to say that "seigen" that look like seigen weren't grown from seedlings.
Piedmont Bonsai
Shohin
Yes this is exactly right. It is very sad and frustrating. It also doesn’t help that many nursery's in the maple trade tout the book by J.D. vertrees as the bible on japanese maples and use it to identify cultivars. he has one photo of “Seigen” in the book and a very inaccurate description. If you have seen Seigen you know it is not correct.
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
I guess I don't get all the fuss over a name. If my tree looks interesting, I can call it "Fred" and be happy with it. I kind of gave up worrying about that when I was trying to identify California red oaks. They look similar. They hybridize easily. Their care is the same. So I call the all Q agrifolia and be done with it.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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This has been discussed over and over, but I don't mind repeating it again here:
Naming things helps you know what you're getting, whether you're doing bonsai, collecting corals, or buying a dog.
If you prefer to choose a maple or buy a dog because of whatever subjective reason appeals to you, that's fine. But saying "I don't get all the fuss" is nonsense. You do get it, because it's simple and I know you're smart enough to understand. You just don't care, and that's different from not 'getting it'.
But there is a reason why when you look to the highest level exhibitions, aside from standard maples, there are only a handful of cultivars that appear over and over and over (Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Sango Kaki, Seigen, Shishigashira, and more recently Ori Hime & Yuki Hime) and you don't see any Bloodgood or Hogyoku or Ukigumo... So sure, you can pick things at random and get lucky, or could end up with something like a Shih Tzu as a guard dog -- on that note, it's possible to ignore the 'fuss', as you say, without simultaneously ignoring the centuries of effort that generations of humans have put into establishing these refined category distinctions.
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
OK, you're right. I don't care if a tree is a Kiyo Hime, or just looks like a Kiyo Hime. If you feel the need to have the name validated by some cultivar police, have at it. But I will enjoy the tree in the show due to its appearance, not its documentation.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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Maybe I was mistaken, it sounds like you actually don't understand
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
Was going to make a snide comment in kind, but I'll pass and be done with this discussion.
More like because they can sell seedlings that are 'close enough' by lying and calling it a cutting.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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That was not a snide comment from me. It was totally genuine.
I'm responding again because I'm truly fascinated by the way you view the world. Have you ever used the word 'red' or 'purple' or do you not let the 'color police' control the way you speak (or see the world)?
Let me ask you a question: When you go to the grocery store, do you just grab any milk at random or do you find it helpful that different types of milk are labelled according to their traits? Do you accuse the grocery store of being the 'milk police' and tell them you rather choose items based on whatever subjective reason happens to appeal to you at that time?
Plant cultivars are no different. You might dislike the world we live in, but as humans we've collectively decided to name things based on their characteristic distinctions primarily to enable communication with one another. I have never heard of 'cultivar police' and I have no idea where you got that idea. You know what I have heard of though? Regulations and rigorous testing regarding the way we produce and label different types of milk and market them to the public, and personally I don't think that that's a totally terrible system because I like knowing that I'm buying 2% milk and not almond milk or chocolate milk -- not least because I can't see inside of the containers or test the products prior to purchase. What's even more fascinating is the label on the side of the container that gives me a detailed breakdown of milk's profile so that I can compare it to other milks. It's almost as if the japanese maple cultivar police had a hand in everything about the world we live in
If the next time you purchase a fridge and a pair of binoculars shows up, let me know how happy you would be about that.
P.S. I wonder if the need to classify Japanese maple trees is what provoked the emergence of language
Piedmont Bonsai
Shohin
@Canada Bonsai have you ever noticed or paid attention to differences in bark in Seigen bonsai? I noticed some Seigen have incredible fissured bark almost to the point that it looks like the trunk is hollow inside. Other Seigen don't have as deep fissures.
I think the second one may be grafted… not sure if that may cause it to look like that. There are a few more i have seen with really fissured bark. One that i remember off the top of my head is the Seigen at Luis Vallejo’s bonsai museum.
Also not sure if age could be a factor. I know both of these are very old trees. I think this first seigen is approaching 100 years old. The second is in the imperial collection so not sure which is older but it is probably ancient too.
Interested to hear your thoughts
I think the second one may be grafted… not sure if that may cause it to look like that. There are a few more i have seen with really fissured bark. One that i remember off the top of my head is the Seigen at Luis Vallejo’s bonsai museum.
Also not sure if age could be a factor. I know both of these are very old trees. I think this first seigen is approaching 100 years old. The second is in the imperial collection so not sure which is older but it is probably ancient too.
Interested to hear your thoughts
clem
Omono
The pic on the bottom looks like deshojo to me...
Piedmont Bonsai
Shohin
I agree in his book that is the image he has for Seigen. Could be one reason why the situation in the US is so crazy for this cultivarThe pic on the bottom looks like deshojo to me...
clem
Omono
If you buy a young JM tree from seeds, which looks like a "real" seigen with the same "seigen", it is a scam, because the genome was modified during sexual reproduction, so the color and shape characteristics of the leaves will not be found.
If you buy a painting by Leonardo da Vinci, or attributed to Vinci, or from Vinci's workshop: the price has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Same with counterfeit Vuitton bags: it looks like one but it's not a real Vuitton. Hope you understand?
In your case, if you don't care about the cultivar, it's better to buy palmatum type or make palmatum type seedlings. By multiplying the "Seigen" or "Deshojo" cultivar by seed, and without saying so, the sellers destroyed the genome and propagated so-called "Seigen" plants that only have 50% of the original genome left (sexual reproduction). So everything is ruined. It's like an art gallery with counterfeits in it. Do you understand?
Yamamomiji
Sapling
Concerning Vertrees' depicition of Seigen: this is a quite unfortunate, certainly not typical for the feathery habit of Seigen I have seen (in Japan).
I wish there would be an updated edition, most preferably with close-up images of foliage during the seasons for each cultivar.
I wish there would be an updated edition, most preferably with close-up images of foliage during the seasons for each cultivar.
Piedmont Bonsai
Shohin
Seriously and to say it is similar to Kiyohime… LOL.Concerning Vertrees' depicition of Seigen: this is a quite unfortunate, certainly not typical for the feathery habit of Seigen I have seen (in Japan).
I wish there would be an updated edition, most preferably with close-up images of foliage during the seasons for each cultivar.
I never understood why the book only includes one photo. Some cultivars included in the book have zero photos and are only described by text
Yamamomiji
Sapling
@Piedmont Bonsai
I am not sure why, I guess, with all that many cultivars, some errors might pass even some editions.
I take the book for what it is, a valuable source but certainly could be updated and enhanced especially for us Bonsai lovers.
Having said that, it is still a tremendous task to achieve if is not your day job.
I am not sure why, I guess, with all that many cultivars, some errors might pass even some editions.
I take the book for what it is, a valuable source but certainly could be updated and enhanced especially for us Bonsai lovers.
Having said that, it is still a tremendous task to achieve if is not your day job.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
side thought.. I amnoticing old seigens to all be very wide, sparce on the inside and a broad open nature to the crown. Interesting thought that this might be a part of the cultivars natural habit, as I have not really seen mature seigens with a compact crown. Mine also is very broad and open, and I am working the crown back, which requires some big reduction cuts. Or maybe there is just one large volume of trees, all produced roughly at the same time, all exported around the same time and thus set u in the ssame fashion. Thoughts?
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
That was not a snide comment from me. It was totally genuine.
I'm responding again because I'm truly fascinated by the way you view the world. Have you ever used the word 'red' or 'purple' or do you not let the 'color police' control the way you speak (or see the world)?
Let me ask you a question: When you go to the grocery store, do you just grab any milk at random or do you find it helpful that different types of milk are labelled according to their traits? Do you accuse the grocery store of being the 'milk police' and tell them you rather choose items based on whatever subjective reason happens to appeal to you at that time?
Plant cultivars are no different. You might dislike the world we live in, but as humans we've collectively decided to name things based on their characteristic distinctions primarily to enable communication with one another. I have never heard of 'cultivar police' and I have no idea where you got that idea. You know what I have heard of though? Regulations and rigorous testing regarding the way we produce and label different types of milk and market them to the public, and personally I don't think that that's a totally terrible system because I like knowing that I'm buying 2% milk and not almond milk or chocolate milk -- not least because I can't see inside of the containers or test the products prior to purchase. What's even more fascinating is the label on the side of the container that gives me a detailed breakdown of milk's profile so that I can compare it to other milks. It's almost as if the japanese maple cultivar police had a hand in everything about the world we live in
If the next time you purchase a fridge and a pair of binoculars shows up, let me know how happy you would be about that.
P.S. I wonder if the need to classify Japanese maple trees is what provoked the emergence of language
OK you sucked me back in one more time. No point addressing the ad absurdum arguments you listed. My point is only this: The enjoyment I have for a Japanese maple on display is based solely on the appearance of the tree, it's observable characteristics, the skill of the artist. Not the name of the cultivar. I have no less appreciation for it if it were called something completely different. Personally I put no higher value on a certified cultivar than a seed-propagated tree that has very similar observable characteristics. Hence, all these arguments about "is that really a Seigen" are irrelevant to me. Apparently they are very important to you. The only way you'll know is to get friendly with a genetic sequencing lab and have a absolutely verifiable reference standard to compare to. Even then you might see some genetic drift in asexually propagated specimens over time.
eplov90
Yamadori
@BrianBay9 I think you are missing the point. It's not about the value, it's about what a person likes and wants.
For example, I know I like the precise characteristics of the Beni Chidori cultivar, from leaf color to internode length, etc. If everyone starts selling trees as Beni Chidori that aren't actually that, I am not guaranteed to get what I know I like and want when I purchase the tree and start a long development journey with it. That's the issue with labeling -- it doesn't mean they aren't going to be beautiful trees, it just means you don't know what you are going to get and whether it's what you actually want.
For example, I know I like the precise characteristics of the Beni Chidori cultivar, from leaf color to internode length, etc. If everyone starts selling trees as Beni Chidori that aren't actually that, I am not guaranteed to get what I know I like and want when I purchase the tree and start a long development journey with it. That's the issue with labeling -- it doesn't mean they aren't going to be beautiful trees, it just means you don't know what you are going to get and whether it's what you actually want.