Confirming Variety Of Satsuiki

Just want to confirm the variety. Was sold to me as Kinsai or Chinsai.

Thanks!

Does not look like a Kinsai. Their flower petals are generally narrower and redder in hue

Chinzan maybe?

Very hard to positively ID azaleas due to the fact there are 1000s of varieties and many look similar

You cannot determine the variety of satsuki from a picture. Over 500 varieties of satsuke. Some are extremely similar. Tags or records from the (reputable) original grower are needed. Once those have gone there is really no way to tell. You wil get “it looks like” ids from all over the place. Some may be more accurate than others but in the end won’t be definitive

It could be a bad Kinsai. The color matches well enough, theres even a light pink version which goes by a different name. If it is a Kinsai, it might not be for much longer, because they need to be pruned to maintain the strap like flowers. When this is not done, eventually only bell shaped flowers will be produced (there are intermediary forms too). I dont know if its likely that a tree that only has fully bell shaped flowers could be recovered through years of dedicated pruning. The version with no strap like flowers does go by a different name I believe. Yours still has some fairly strap like flowers it seems, at least a couple, so I think you still have a shot.

With plant sports, in many cases you CAN tell definitively that something is not a specific one, because the cultivar name is also tied to the appearance, not just the DNA sequence of the individual.

Much appreciated everyone for trying to help out! Sounds like it's going to be a myth forever and I am fine with that

End of the day, it's a beautiful red flower azalea and I love it! Now back to spraying to get rid of the lace bugs!

Does it have any of the narrow flower petals? Kinsai will revert to its mother(?) flower, which looks like yours. You have to prune those branches off to preserve the desirable thin-petaled flowering branches.

Kinsai bark will take a reddish hue in late winter as well as an indicator.

Though, to @rockm point, impossible to positively ID cultivar by photos if you don’t have the provenance.

Brian Van Fleet said:

Does it have any of the narrow flower petals? Kinsai will revert to its mother(?) flower, which looks like yours. You have to prune those branches off to preserve the desirable thin-petaled flowering branches.

Kinsai bark will take a reddish hue in late winter as well as an indicator.

Though, to @rockm point, impossible to positively ID cultivar by photos if you don’t have the provenance.

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Thank you sir! I just acquired the tree as a save because it was infested with lace bug and the prior owner lost interest in it. My goal for this year is to save and get the strength back. Then reassess next spring to see if it will be ready for a full repot because it is currently in what looks like heavy clay...
Have been spraying every 3-4 days and used systemic. New leaves seem to be healthy and unaffected so I am hopeful. Watering is going to be tricky with that soil...

These are bad pictures. I cannot even see if there are 5 stamens. But it is not Kinsai or Chinsai.

RockM is wrong. I can confirm many varieties. As can others. Just depends on how unique the variety is. MiniSatsuki even holds a quiz on this and many people give correct answers.
But he would be right that it is bad to relabel a variety based on what someone on the interwebs says. Many people also do bad IDs.

Close photos of the flowers and leaves are actually needed to make the identification easier...

Glaucus said:

These are bad pictures. I cannot even see if there are 5 stamens. But it is not Kinsai or Chinsai.

RockM is wrong. I can confirm many varieties. As can others. Just depends on how unique the variety is. MiniSatsuki even holds a quiz on this and many people give correct answers.
But he would be right that it is bad to relabel a variety based on what someone on the interwebs says. Many people also do bad IDs.

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Is the 2nd photo not detail enough? Should I take a photo just focusing on one flower?

fredman said:

Close photos of the flowers and leaves are actually needed to make the identification easier...

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Should I focus on one flower? The leaves are mostly infested with lace bugs and the color is way off. But I will post pictures once the new flush pushes out.

Yes focus on one flower....and some others, if they are different.
The amount of stamen and the shape of the leaves both are a great help in identification.

fredman said:

Yes focus on one flower....and some others, if they are different.
The amount of stamen and the shape of the leaves both are a great help in identification.

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Closest I can get without losing focus.

roberthu said:

Closest I can get without losing focus.

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You weren’t kidding about the lace bug. Those leaves are eaten up pretty bad. Hopefully you get it under control and don’t allow them to spread. They can be persistent.

Here is my Kinsai from a few years ago showing some of the reverted flowers for comparison:

Concur with @Glaucus ID is possible for many cultivars. Especially if you have 4-5 in your backyard!

Definitely not Kinsai. Even reverted.

Colors ok, but cameras vary. Chinzan does have black tipped stamens, so possible… however Chinzan also has pointed vs rounded leaf tips.

Can you post a couple images of clear leaf clusters.

Cheers
DSD sends

Glaucus said:

These are bad pictures. I cannot even see if there are 5 stamens. But it is not Kinsai or Chinsai.

RockM is wrong. I can confirm many varieties. As can others. Just depends on how unique the variety is. MiniSatsuki even holds a quiz on this and many people give correct answers.
But he would be right that it is bad to relabel a variety based on what someone on the interwebs says. Many people also do bad IDs.

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Ok, but I'm not really completely wrong. Many people can and will provide bad info online. "Experts" can be a dime a dozen online. It is very hard to ID who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Best solution for anyone in this situation is to go back to the source and start from there. In the end a definitive ID is probably not gonna happen. I think the OP has the right attitude in seeing that the azalea has beautiful flowers and a pretty good trunk on it and in the end, ID is kind of secondary.

You are not completely wrong in the same way as people who ID a pink azalea using the name of just some pink azalea cultivar. They got the right idea, but make an incorrect definite statement.

As for this one, I suspect it is some Southern indica azalea that has been in the trade for a long time there. The rounded leaves and upright growth are different from most satsuki used for bonsai in Japan. But it still has 5 stamens. And it can't be R.kaempferi influenced because it is blooming now. But candidates like Duc de Rohan and Pride of Dorking are all not correct for this one either. So I donno.

Glaucus said:

You are not completely wrong in the same way as people who ID a pink azalea using the name of just some pink azalea cultivar. They got the right idea, but make an incorrect definite statement.

As for this one, I suspect it is some Southern indica azalea that has been in the trade for a long time there. The rounded leaves and upright growth are different from most satsuki used for bonsai in Japan. But it still has 5 stamens. And it can't be R.kaempferi influenced because it is blooming now. But candidates like Duc de Rohan and Pride of Dorking are all not correct for this one either. So I donno.

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I think you may be onto something with this being an indica and not a satsuki. Im not an azalea person (but I have purchased and priced a few) The size alone for an imported satsuki would make this plant worth about $1000 or more here. Giving such a valuable plant away would be difficult for me at least

Also it has coarse branching like collected landscape indicas have

Awesome. It’s really good to hear this. Looking back at the thread think it’s important to recall folks that persist on this thread usually all work hard to master different facets of bonsai

Over time, as a relatively short timer, it’s pretty obvious to me who can answer a certain genre of question from a deep knowledge base.

Some folks know much more about azaleas than most other @Glaucus is a hybridizer, identification of traits is his bread and butter. Being only a propagator and instructor, I often defer to him on sticky Identification issues…. unless it’s one of the 110+ cultivars we work with daily. We have plenty of both.

To put this in perspective, OP is asking about the potential identification of two common azaleas in bonsai. Kinsai and Chinzan. The first Kinsai, is prized for its recessive flowers, while the other, Chinzan is sometimes called the ‘grocery store Satsuki’ given its prevalence in and availability to hobbyists.

So why aren’t these Kinsai? Flower, leaves and stem is why. This what we check (besides habit for wild type) and what runs through my brain checklist.

Here’s a Kinsai with both round dominant and strap like recessive flowers. Note the leaf shape…



Let’s look at the stems.This is another Kinsai, young, vigorous with the classic red stem for red flower… The older leaves show the normal shape.

So not a Kinsai. Let’s look at Chinzan. This is a pretty beat up flower due the rain and then heat. Best we got on short notice though



Note the leaves and stem this time. Close up of the leaves for a plant that’s older and in the sun.


Leaves and stem for a younger Chinzan in the shade, showing the characteristic red stem on younger shoots. These anre normal for both Chinzan and its parent Osakasuki.



That’s all I got for now. @Glaucus any thoughts?

Cheers
DSD sends