Beginner with too many questions? Probably..

[invaderzim]

Hi everyone,

Was always interested in bonsai and got really into it after attending a local show and joining the local club. Held off on buying anything off the bat since I wanted to research more, but was able to score a cedar elm and Chinese elm seedling from a door drawing during the meeting and also found a trident maple seedling. Started asking questions on the r/Bonsai subreddit (shoutout to @MaciekA though for answering my initial beginner questions over there), but there just isn't as much collective experience on there compared to here and I didn't join earlier here just because the members seem so intimidating.

Anyway, I have been able to grow these out and despite the heat we have here and some crispiness in the leaves (currently in morning sun until early afternoon where it's in shade for the rest of the day). I have applied some wiring and it's been on for a couple weeks, but I'm now questioning myself whether if there's such a thing as too much movement.. Especially with no clear styling goals in mind just yet. So I wanted to get everyone's feedback on that. Obviously, these will be in development for years while I work with other materials, but I'd like to get them started on the right path at least. I'd like to develop one of the elms as a root-over-rock, maybe both. They'll be in these nursery pots and organic soil for the rest of this year as it's too late to repot and I didn't expect to have these right away so I didn't purchase any inorganic soil. Next year though, I'll take off the taproot, pot in some inorganic soil and use a colander/net pot/air pruning pot of some type for root development.

Where we started:

https://imgur.com/a/Xxz1ejk

Where we're at:

https://imgur.com/a/ETKssqM

Are there good detailed resources anyone can point me to in regards to examples of progressive development over the long term starting from beginner material (e.g. seedling/saplings, nursery stock, etc.)? There's a lot out there about applying specific techniques, but it's been hard for me to find videos or posts combining it all together for a single development phase broken down by steps they've taken, things to account for in the future, and why certain decisions are made. Some videos/posts are so far in development that it isn't applicable to me.

Also, where can I learn about or what can I do to develop good styling basics?

I'm almost leaning towards getting a subscription to Mirai/Eisei-en and just binge on their content to absorb as much as I can because it seems I can get most of what I'm looking for there. Thoughts?

Lastly, I'll take any advice you all have as well to get better!

P.S. Shout-out to any members in the central OK area! Feel free to reach out to talk bonsai, it'd be nice to have people specific to the area to talk to regarding challenges and advice for our climate.

 

[Godschick]

Well first of all welcome!!! The posters on here can post some intimidating stuff from a newbie perspective, especially when responding to each other. But I can assure you, they understand that we are new and are very helpful in their feedback on the level we are at. Continue reading the more complex subjects discussed and suddenly you will find they are not so complex anymore.

It sounds like you’re on the right track as far as joining your club, reaching out to people and that video series. I was just suggested to watch the Mirai video series as well, so I think I’m going to dive into that this weekend.

My only advice, since I am a newbie, is on that Trident, even though it’s a little bit heartier than a lot of maples, is direct sun can fry it pretty badly so be sure to provide some shade/filtered sun. The heat and wind can also cause the leaves to scorch at bit. My very first Bonsai was a Chinese Elm, so great one to start with. They’re super hearty. I don’t know if you’ve been told but during the summer just be sure they’re getting enough water as well. One missed watering and you could lose them.

I think your plan about repotting later in the colander with some inorganic substrate is perfect! Those are little guys so just getting them to grow out and get some roots would be the goal. Maybe after watching the videos get some nursery stock to work on and put to practice the knowledge you gained from the videos and reading and reaching out. I assure you, you will want to! I’ve only been in it for five months and I’m still learning new things every day. Bonsai comes with a warning, it is super addicting for most! Depending on how much you actually love it will depend on how much of your life it actually consumes lol Bonsai Nut is a great place to learn so keep coming here and keep everybody updated with your progress. Feel free to reach out any time.

 

[nuttiest]

Just keep growing it out, bring it in, repeat, repeat, you will have something eventually then wiring if necessary will be useful.

 

[rockm]

Hi everyone,

Was always interested in bonsai and got really into it after attending a local show and joining the local club. Held off on buying anything off the bat since I wanted to research more, but was able to score a cedar elm and Chinese elm seedling from a door drawing during the meeting and also found a trident maple seedling. Started asking questions on the r/Bonsai subreddit (shoutout to @MaciekA though for answering my initial beginner questions over there), but there just isn't as much collective experience on there compared to here and I didn't join earlier here just because the members seem so intimidating.

Anyway, I have been able to grow these out and despite the heat we have here and some crispiness in the leaves (currently in morning sun until early afternoon where it's in shade for the rest of the day). I have applied some wiring and it's been on for a couple weeks, but I'm now questioning myself whether if there's such a thing as too much movement.. Especially with no clear styling goals in mind just yet. So I wanted to get everyone's feedback on that. Obviously, these will be in development for years while I work with other materials, but I'd like to get them started on the right path at least. I'd like to develop one of the elms as a root-over-rock, maybe both. They'll be in these nursery pots and organic soil for the rest of this year as it's too late to repot and I didn't expect to have these right away so I didn't purchase any inorganic soil. Next year though, I'll take off the taproot, pot in some inorganic soil and use a colander/net pot/air pruning pot of some type for root development.

Where we started:

https://imgur.com/a/Xxz1ejk

Where we're at:

https://imgur.com/a/ETKssqM

Are there good detailed resources anyone can point me to in regards to examples of progressive development over the long term starting from beginner material (e.g. seedling/saplings, nursery stock, etc.)? There's a lot out there about applying specific techniques, but it's been hard for me to find videos or posts combining it all together for a single development phase broken down by steps they've taken, things to account for in the future, and why certain decisions are made. Some videos/posts are so far in development that it isn't applicable to me.

Also, where can I learn about or what can I do to develop good styling basics?

I'm almost leaning towards getting a subscription to Mirai/Eisei-en and just binge on their content to absorb as much as I can because it seems I can get most of what I'm looking for there. Thoughts?

Lastly, I'll take any advice you all have as well to get better!

P.S. Shout-out to any members in the central OK area! Feel free to reach out to talk bonsai, it'd be nice to have people specific to the area to talk to regarding challenges and advice for our climate.

First off welcome!

You've chosen some pretty reliable species for your area. I have several Texas collected mature and developing cedar elm bonsai. Cedar elm is mostly bulletproof in your climate. I've been keeping them here in Va. (have many relatives in Texas, so I know the species), for the past 25 years or so. Haven't had an issue with them. They're tough, can take a lot of beginner mistakes, from bad top pruning to haphazard root pruning. Leaves reduce naturally and they backbud spectacularly after hard pruning. Chinese elm is much the same, but I have found Cedar elm superior to Chinese elm in hardiness and workability.

Some advice on material--seedlings offer very little in the way of actual bonsai experience. If you like them, grow them, but it will be five or more years before you have a workable tree from these. There will be many others who will say otherwise. It's an old argument. I land on the side of using more mature trees, as they teach the most and more immediately

FWIW, Most deciduous seedlings are not "worked" introducing bends at such an early stage, as conifers are. Conifers have more flexible wood and take wire more easily. Additionally wired bends in deciduous trees can look odd and unconvincing. Wiring later at sapling/mature tree stages can be dangerous as deciduous trees' wood is brittle and can snap if you're too aggressive with bending it. Successive hard pruning of trunk, then branches induces taper and refinement that actually looks like a tree in the wild.

Deciduous trees are mostly developed with hard pruning and hard cut backs. While you're waiting for them to bulk up, consider getting a starter tree or starter stock tree that you can actually work on and use the knowledge you pick up from Mirai and Eisei En. Those guys mostly don't work with seedlings as bonsai.

Below is one of my cedar elms when it was collected from a Texas field near Tyler five years ago. Note it is only about 2 1/2 inches in diameter (across) the trunk at soil level. It was "dug" up using only a reciprocating saw to sever its roots. Collecting it took literally about five minutes. It has since been growing like a weed in a bonsai pot, developing branching and a new apex. This is one species that beginners can easily get. You can do the same with a nursery grown tree as well.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Nice!

1 year ago, my chinese elm looked just like yours. It was a bit floppy, so I (very loosely) wired just to keep it in place. I thought I may as well put a bit of movement in it while I'm at it. I'm not sure if it was the wiring of the main trunk, but a side branch has taken over as the apex and shot up close to 4 feet high. This is the fastest growing tree I've had so far.

My point is, it might be a bit early to wire, much as @rockm has stated. It will be at least a couple more years of just letting it grow before it's thick enough to really try to work.

Another note, I repotted mine in summer/fall (?) last year due to an emergency into good bonsai soil. Once spring hit, it went nuts with growth. It really does love the bonsai soil.

 

[invaderzim]

My only advice, since I am a newbie, is on that Trident, even though it’s a little bit heartier than a lot of maples, is direct sun can fry it pretty badly so be sure to provide some shade/filtered sun. The heat and wind can also cause the leaves to scorch at bit. My very first Bonsai was a Chinese Elm, so great one to start with. They’re super hearty. I don’t know if you’ve been told but during the summer just be sure they’re getting enough water as well. One missed watering and you could lose them.

Thanks for the suggestions on the trident. Have been keeping it out of afternoon sun for sure, but we definitely have an excess of heat and wind here and would explain some of the scorching as well. Otherwise, I've been keeping up with the watering for sure.

I think your plan about repotting later in the colander with some inorganic substrate is perfect! Those are little guys so just getting them to grow out and get some roots would be the goal. Maybe after watching the videos get some nursery stock to work on and put to practice the knowledge you gained from the videos and reading and reaching out. I assure you, you will want to! I’ve only been in it for five months and I’m still learning new things every day. Bonsai comes with a warning, it is super addicting for most! Depending on how much you actually love it will depend on how much of your life it actually consumes lol Bonsai Nut is a great place to learn so keep coming here and keep everybody updated with your progress. Feel free to reach out any time.

Thanks for reaffirming. I'm excited for the journey!

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Welcome Aboard Bonsai Nut!

This is a great platform to learn on. Using the search function will yield your reams of reading material of specific and general subjects relating to bonsai and horticulture in general.

Imho the key is to get one’s horticulture down rock solid for each tree in their collection.

To help folks do this, Bonsai Mirai posted some great beginner lectures on You Tube I highly recommend. These are the BSOP, Beginner and Wiring series. No cost and will serve you well..

Looking forward to seeing your future posts!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShadyStump]

Welcome aboard!

This forum hosts some of the modern western greats, a whole bunch of incredibly experienced professionals and hobbyists, and a fair number of intrepid noobs. A mix like that can certainly be intimidating, but everyone here genuinely wants to help out, even if their people and teaching skills aren't on the same level as their bonsai skills.

Here's a great resource from our own markyscott that will blow your mind on soil questions.

Introductory Soil Physics

Here is the second resource developed from the thread "Introductory Soil Physics". It is a document explaining how the important physical properties in soil and substrates combine to control the amount of air and water in the pore space of soils...

www.bonsainut.com

I've not come a cross an equally helpful resource on the relationships of tree growth hormone production, but once you get your head around that and the soil physics, 80% of your questions start to answer themselves. I'll keep digging because it seems like that's something that should be around here somewhere.

After that it's learning what trees do what when and where they do it best. The rest is practice.

 

[invaderzim]

You've chosen some pretty reliable species for your area. I have several Texas collected mature and developing cedar elm bonsai. Cedar elm is mostly bulletproof in your climate. I've been keeping them here in Va. (have many relatives in Texas, so I know the species), for the past 25 years or so. Haven't had an issue with them. They're tough, can take a lot of beginner mistakes, from bad top pruning to haphazard root pruning. Leaves reduce naturally and they backbud spectacularly after hard pruning. Chinese elm is much the same, but I have found Cedar elm superior to Chinese elm in hardiness and workability.

I am definitely trying to stick with good species for my area to ensure a higher rate of success in regards to just keeping them alive. Will probably stick with elms and tridents for awhile to get use to working on those since they're so robust for my area. Maybe in a year or so I'll think about getting some bald cypress and maybe some ginkgos even later on since these are good for my area as well. Thanks for reaffirming how generally easy they are to work with.

Some advice on material--seedlings offer very little in the way of actual bonsai experience. If you like them, grow them, but it will be five or more years before you have a workable tree from these. There will be many others who will say otherwise. It's an old argument. I land on the side of using more mature trees, as they teach the most and more immediately

Oh yeah, I am definitely aware that these will basically be nothing for awhile. I can't complain though since I got them for free. I have gotten some nursery stock privet (Sunshine var., non-flowering=non-invasive), to work on in the meantime in regards to techniques, development, and styling. Word is those are hardy as well, so we'll see.. Already broke a branch putting too much of a bend, but the branch is still alive after 2 weeks so there's that.

FWIW, Most deciduous seedlings are not "worked" introducing bends at such an early stage, as conifers are. Conifers have more flexible wood and take wire more easily. Additionally wired bends in deciduous trees can look odd and unconvincing. Wiring later at sapling/mature tree stages can be dangerous as deciduous trees' wood is brittle and can snap if you're too aggressive with bending it. Successive hard pruning of trunk, then branches induces taper and refinement that actually looks like a tree in the wild.

Deciduous trees are mostly developed with hard pruning and hard cut backs. While you're waiting for them to bulk up, consider getting a starter tree or starter stock tree that you can actually work on and use the knowledge you pick up from Mirai and Eisei En. Those guys mostly don't work with seedlings as bonsai.

I had a feeling it was a little too much.. I'll probably go back and do something a little less drastic and settle for gentler movement. I guess a follow-up question relating to taper, chops, and scarring is where is the balance between developing trunk size and having to do a big chop versus something like using sacrifice branches? Where do most people tend to lean? I've read the different methods here on Bonsai Empire and have seen various videos and my personal aesthetic is to shy away from large scars which sounds like any technique except for cut-and-grow/chop would be what I lean towards.

Below is one of my cedar elms when it was collected from a Texas field near Tyler five years ago. Note it is only about 2 1/2 inches in diameter (across) the trunk at soil level. It was "dug" up using only a reciprocating saw to sever its roots. Collecting it took literally about five minutes. It has since been growing like a weed in a bonsai pot, developing branching and a new apex. This is one species that beginners can easily get. You can do the same with a nursery grown tree as well.

If you have any progress updates anywhere, I'd be interested in reading through!

 

[invaderzim]

Nice!

1 year ago, my chinese elm looked just like yours. It was a bit floppy, so I (very loosely) wired just to keep it in place. I thought I may as well put a bit of movement in it while I'm at it. I'm not sure if it was the wiring of the main trunk, but a side branch has taken over as the apex and shot up close to 4 feet high. This is the fastest growing tree I've had so far.

My point is, it might be a bit early to wire, much as @rockm has stated. It will be at least a couple more years of just letting it grow before it's thick enough to really try to work.

Another note, I repotted mine in summer/fall (?) last year due to an emergency into good bonsai soil. Once spring hit, it went nuts with growth. It really does love the bonsai soil.

Note taken, thank you! Definitely moving to better soil next year!

Welcome aboard!

This forum hosts some of the modern western greats, a whole bunch of incredibly experienced professionals and hobbyists, and a fair number of intrepid noobs. A mix like that can certainly be intimidating, but everyone here genuinely wants to help out, even if their people and teaching skills aren't on the same level as their bonsai skills.

Here's a great resource from our own markyscott that will blow your mind on soil questions.

Introductory Soil Physics

Here is the second resource developed from the thread "Introductory Soil Physics". It is a document explaining how the important physical properties in soil and substrates combine to control the amount of air and water in the pore space of soils...

www.bonsainut.com

I've not come a cross an equally helpful resource on the relationships of tree growth hormone production, but once you get your head around that and the soil physics, 80% of your questions start to answer themselves. I'll keep digging because it seems like that's something that should be around here somewhere.

After that it's learning what trees do what when and where they do it best. The rest is practice.

I've actually read through that! Can't say I remember everything off the top of my head, but definitely bookmarked as a resource. Please let me know if there additional resources that would be beneficial!

 

[Paradox]

Welcome

Rockm gave you some good advice.
I'll add that to continue learning, try getting some good bonsai books. There is one by David DeGroot called Principles of Bonsai Design that is very good for learning. You can purchase it online from Stone Lantern.

Also focus on basic horticulture and how to keep things alive. Dead trees can't be made into bonsai.

That said, don't get discouraged when you inevitably have trees die. It happens to all of us and the dues we pay to learn

 

[invaderzim]

Welcome

Rockm gave you some good advice.
I'll add that to continue learning, try getting some good bonsai books. There is one by David DeGroot called Principles of Bonsai Design that is very good for learning. You can purchase it online from Stone Lantern.

Also focus on basic horticulture and how to keep things alive. Dead trees can't be made into bonsai.

That said, don't get discouraged when you inevitably have trees die. It happens to all of us and the dues we pay to learn

I have "Principles of Bonsai Design" on my list of books to read as I've heard good things. I have finished Tomlinson's "The Complete Book of Bonsai" and am reading through Koreshoff's "Bonsai : Its Art, Science, History, and Philosophy".

Probably bound to happen that I'll lose a tree somewhere along the line, just want the reason to be because I was learning versus being carelessness.

 

[DavidBoren]

Definitely bound to lose some trees along the line... it's part of the learning process. Killing trees is what we do.

 

[Shibui]

I don't think you can have too much bend, especially in very young trunks. As the tree thicken they tend to put more growth on the inside of bends and less on outside which, in effect, straightens the bends.
Of course that all depends on the shape and size you are aiming for. Broom style has a straight, vertical trunk but informal upright can be either slight bends or really twisted. The smaller trees also seem to look better with exaggerated bends and twists but not evenly spaced gentle curves. That's why many trees are developed by pruning. Chop and grow gives random, different bends in different directions and distances apart and that looks far more natural than a lazy S shape.

Just beware of wire marks on young trunks. They thicken rapidly in the first year and can completely swallow the wires if you look away. Really young wood should only take a few months to set in place anyway so get the wires off as soon as it looks tight on the trunk.

Another word of warning. Try to avoid bending then rebending. Every time we bend it creates damage in the trunk. Bending back the other way or straightening out after the first bend can cause enough damage to kill part of a trunk. Best to let it set for a few weeks at least before changing bends.

 

[ShadyStump]

BTW, Gir days he's still waiting for his waffles.

 

[invaderzim]

I don't think you can have too much bend, especially in very young trunks. As the tree thicken they tend to put more growth on the inside of bends and less on outside which, in effect, straightens the bends.
Of course that all depends on the shape and size you are aiming for. Broom style has a straight, vertical trunk but informal upright can be either slight bends or really twisted. The smaller trees also seem to look better with exaggerated bends and twists but not evenly spaced gentle curves. That's why many trees are developed by pruning. Chop and grow gives random, different bends in different directions and distances apart and that looks far more natural than a lazy S shape.

I'll make a note of this seeing as how I prefer more natural aesthetic rather than something like the S shape. I've read/heard that bends tend to straighten out as the trunk gets bigger, but seeing you phrase it in terms of where growth occurs suddenly makes sense to me why now. The same amount of growth occurs within a section of a trunk and in young trees and since they're more flexible, due to having less sapwood/heartwood, they're prone to straightening out due to more "pressure" in the inner curve of a bend vs the outside. Analogous to those balloons used for balloon animals in that you breath to blow up the balloon represents the grown in diameter that occurs and since there's no solid inner core, the natural tendency for the balloon is to straighten out with each breath. I could be way off base as well, so please feel free to correct me.

Just beware of wire marks on young trunks. They thicken rapidly in the first year and can completely swallow the wires if you look away. Really young wood should only take a few months to set in place anyway so get the wires off as soon as it looks tight on the trunk.

I am checking if I need to water everyday considering the weather here right now and have been checking the wire along with it, but thank you for the reminder!

Another word of warning. Try to avoid bending then rebending. Every time we bend it creates damage in the trunk. Bending back the other way or straightening out after the first bend can cause enough damage to kill part of a trunk. Best to let it set for a few weeks at least before changing bends.

This I did not know, thank you!

 

[invaderzim]

BTW, Gir days he's still waiting for his waffles.

Haha, I'm glad someone gets the reference. Really am disappointed the run was so short. I may need to try and get a rewatch in now, it's been a minute. Bob's Burgers has been in my current rotation for quite awhile now.

 

[ShadyStump]

Haha, I'm glad someone gets the reference. Really am disappointed the run was so short. I may need to try and get a rewatch in now, it's been a minute. Bob's Burgers has been in my current rotation for quite awhile now.

Trying to remember who I saw here with a Happy Noodle Boy t-shirt.

Anyways, chopstick trick: jab a bamboo/wooden chopstick or skewer or whatever into the soil all the way to the bottom and leave it there. Use it as a dipstick to judge soil moisture. Only water when you're almost but not quite dry.
They say that watering can be the hardest part of bonsai to learn, and this takes the guess work out of it, so I like to share with the other newbies. It's saved allot of trees for me.

 

[invaderzim]

Trying to remember who I saw here with a Happy Noodle Boy t-shirt.

Anyways, chopstick trick: jab a bamboo/wooden chopstick or skewer or whatever into the soil all the way to the bottom and leave it there. Use it as a dipstick to judge soil moisture. Only water when you're almost but not quite dry.
They say that watering can be the hardest part of bonsai to learn, and this takes the guess work out of it, so I like to share with the other newbies. It's saved allot of trees for me.

I'm guessing this trick works better in more inorganic soil? Due to organic soil staining the chopstick and coloring it darker making it harder to see how wet/dry the chopstick is? At least that's been my experience with house plants in potting mix at least.