Soil wars - a substrate comparison

[leatherback]

Hi All,

I thought I would leave this here...:

Substrate effect on Bonsai development - Growing Bonsai

What substrate is best for bonsai? What differences are there? We take a step towards better understanding differences in a trial with seedlings!

www.growingbonsai.net

Conclusion​

This trial was done with a very small number of plants. From a scientific perspective the number of samples probably is insufficient for statistically sounds conclusions. That being said, with the differences being so clear, I personally feel confident that the pattern seen here is real, and not a coincidence.

In this experiment, seedlings grown in Akadama showed reduced biomass accumulation. The above-ground parts were shorter and thinner than those in other substrate. For growing bonsai from seed / young material this might mean that Akadama will slow down above ground development. On the other hand, for more mature material it might mean that internodes are closer and fewer extending branches will form when growing in Akadama.

The roots were finer, and with more active growing tips for Akadama. This may assist in developing a better nebari.

Considerations​

Akadama is by most not used pure, but rather in a mix with e.g., bims and lava. As such this could be seen as an unfair comparison. Considering the differences seen in this experiment it is worthwhile to explore further experiments with individual substrate components as well as mixed substrates. If you have done such experiments, please let me know!

 

[Fishtank307]

I've recently noticed the same thing with a couple of elm cuttings from 3 years ago.. One group planting was planted in a mix of akadama and pumice. This resulted in a couple of bigger roots and bigger trunks.
The other group planting was planted in straight akadama. It has a lot of very fine roots, no bigger roots and LOTS of fine twigs above ground. It's not a scientific research either, but I kinda had a hunch the akadama would 'slow down' the development of these young trees.

 

[Maiden69]

For growing bonsai from seed / young material this might mean that Akadama will slow down above ground development. On the other hand, for more mature material it might mean that internodes are closer and fewer extending branches will form when growing in Akadama.

Well, this is the same statement that Ryann makes. He does not "endorse" the use of akadama for trees in development. He recommends a 60-70% organic with 30-40% inorganic substrate. He also recommends 100% akadama for all deciduous trees once they enter the refinement stage.

David Cortizas from Spain did a similar test with akadama/worm humus, akadama 70/kyriu 30, akadama 70/ pumice 30, akadama/kyriu/bio char. He doesn't use 100% akadama because the 70/30 akadama/kyriu is the mix they used in Taisho-en were he did his apprenticeship. The akadama/kyriu was the best for developing tighter internode length and ramification in his test. The roots also presented the same scenario as the top of the tree. Video is in Spanish, but you can set CC with auto-translation to other languages.

 

[leatherback]

Well, this is the same statement that Ryann makes.

Thanks for confirming, although I am not sure who he is, and what value such statements hold.

I was just fed-up with all the statements being made, without ever seeing a proper side-by-side comparison, which is why I did a small one. Considering the differences I found, I might do another one, next year, where I do a whole range of substrates.

will check the video. Good to see others trialling and comparing.

 

[Kadebe]

Thanks for confirming, although I am not sure who he is, and what value such statements hold.

I was just fed-up with all the statements being made, without ever seeing a proper side-by-side comparison, which is why I did a small one. Considering the differences I found, I might do another one, next year, where I do a whole range of substrates.

will check the video. Good to see others trialling and comparing.

Please do also a test with bardula

 

[leatherback]

bardula

?

 

[Maiden69]

Thanks for confirming, although I am not sure who he is, and what value such statements hold.

I was just fed-up with all the statements being made, without ever seeing a proper side-by-side comparison, which is why I did a small one. Considering the differences I found, I might do another one, next year, where I do a whole range of substrates.

will check the video. Good to see others trialling and comparing.

Ryan Neil? I guess the double n threw you off, or you were just being sarcastic?

David started his test in 2015, this video is a recap of it and the results in 2020.

 

[DanaWhicker]

Uh oh. Bringing science to a soil debate. What a concept!

 

[Davidlpf]

Less growth with a substrate that retains fewer nutrients. Who would have imagined it?
The key is the feeding and watering schedule.

Cheers

 

[leatherback]

Less growth with a substrate that retains fewer nutrients. Who would have imagined it?
The key is the feeding and watering schedule.

Cheers

I would dare say akadama holds on to nutrient better than the other substrate. In general, clays are known for good nutrient retention

 

[Maiden69]

Less growth with a substrate that retains fewer nutrients. Who would have imagined it?
The key is the feeding and watering schedule.

Cheers

hmmm, watch David's video. He got stronger growth with akadama/pumice, which retains less nutrients than akadama/kyriu. This was under a controlled test, same watering, sun exposure, etc...

Here, have a read. Further down the thread he posts CEC

Introductory soil physics

Great post Scott. It takes a lot of time and effort to do what you are doing. Appreciate your work, thanks. Did you get the same WHC for these three groups?

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Davidlpf]

I would dare say akadama holds on to nutrient better than the other substrate. In general, clays are known for good nutrient retention

More than the pine bark?

hmmm, watch David's video. He got stronger growth with akadama/pumice, which retains less nutrients than akadama/kyriu. This was under a controlled test, same watering, sun exposure, etc...

Here, have a read. Further down the thread he posts CEC

Introductory soil physics

Great post Scott. It takes a lot of time and effort to do what you are doing. Appreciate your work, thanks. Did you get the same WHC for these three groups?

www.bonsainut.com

Strong is the growth that have Mr. Pitarch, using only pure pomice.

Mr Cortiza is...well, Mr. Cortizas

Cheers

 

[Maiden69]

More than the pine bark?



Strong is the growth that have Mr. Pitarch, using only pure pomice.

Pumice CEC is lower than akadama, yet you are saying that it grows great trees...

And I'm sure Mr. Pitarch can sit in his nursery watering the trees when ever needed. I don't have that luxury. If growing trees in pure pumice was that easy, a lot of people here would be doing it already. Kazuo Onuma grows all his trees in pure red lava, from conifers to maples, but I'm sure he's constantly checking for when to water them. That is the problem with pumice and lava, they don't hold the same amount of water.

I wouldn't use pine bark for trees in refinement... as I wouldn't use akadama for trees in development.

 

[Davidlpf]

Pumice CEC is lower than akadama, yet you are saying that it grows great trees...

Because "The key is the feeding and watering schedule."

And I'm sure Mr. Pitarch can sit in his nursery watering the trees when ever needed. I don't have that luxury.

Once upon a time, man invented the wheel, later on, automatic irrigation. If you want, you can

The question is....


Strong growth, small internodes and leaf size, a good even nebari.....Each election has a price.

 

[Fishtank307]

I would dare say akadama holds on to nutrient better than the other substrate. In general, clays are known for good nutrient retention

True!
In my experience, the added benefit of pumice and lava rock for strong growth, is that it helps maintain structure in the soil mix (and thus aeration!). When the akadama starts to break down (and compact the soil), pumice and lava rock are there to keeps things light and aerated.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Hi All,

I thought I would leave this here...:

View attachment 427672

View attachment 427671

Substrate effect on Bonsai development - Growing Bonsai

What substrate is best for bonsai? What differences are there? We take a step towards better understanding differences in a trial with seedlings!

www.growingbonsai.net

Conclusion​

This trial was done with a very small number of plants. From a scientific perspective the number of samples probably is insufficient for statistically sounds conclusions. That being said, with the differences being so clear, I personally feel confident that the pattern seen here is real, and not a coincidence.

In this experiment, seedlings grown in Akadama showed reduced biomass accumulation. The above-ground parts were shorter and thinner than those in other substrate. For growing bonsai from seed / young material this might mean that Akadama will slow down above ground development. On the other hand, for more mature material it might mean that internodes are closer and fewer extending branches will form when growing in Akadama.

The roots were finer, and with more active growing tips for Akadama. This may assist in developing a better nebari.

Considerations​

Akadama is by most not used pure, but rather in a mix with e.g., bims and lava. As such this could be seen as an unfair comparison. Considering the differences seen in this experiment it is worthwhile to explore further experiments with individual substrate components as well as mixed substrates. If you have done such experiments, please let me know!

Very interesting . Considering a lot is implied about . Akadama. Slowly breaking down over time . Which is why you get great ramification . From the smaller particles . My self don’t use it . Based on its freeze performance . Thinking also . If smaller particles . Create tighter ramification . Just use smaller particles . Anyway . Think it points out there is a lot we don’t know . As smart as we think we are .

 

[Kadebe]

?

New @ Yama Bonsai : Bardula the European Akadama. - Yama-Bonsai

So in 2018 Valentine Brose told me about a product he was testing called Bardula top soil from Stefano Pinna. At first i was very sceptic about this, because we all know why we use akadama. In the past 3 years Valentine was pretty satisfied with how the trees in his garden were growing in […]

www.yama-bonsai.be

Now they use it also at Gingko Center in Laarne. But only in the refinement stage.

 

[ShadyStump]

I wonder if these findings would carry over to akadam alternatives many people use, like Turface, SafTSorb, etc.
These tend to be different clay types or diatomaceous earth, but are chosen for their water holding to aeration ratios, much the way akadama is considered.
Anyone know of some substantiated comparisons there?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've seen insane root ramification in agar gels, basically one big slab of a super fine polymer matrix. But I've also seen the opposite, in the same medium. When corrected for species and cultivars, it seems the ones that are the longest in culture show the most ramification in the roots.
I'm thinking particle breakdown is not the whole story of the physiological result.

Root bags have similar effects, as do organic soils.

Something on the list of 'stuff to look into'.
An even drying rate is a big suspect to me. Adhesive and cohesive forces of akadama can create a sponge-like effect where water is lost in equal portions in all dimensions. Similar to a gel, or a root bag.
Maybe air pruning isn't based on air alone, but also tip death from dessication, killing auxin sources, forcing local cytokinin excesses and therefore increasing root ramification.



@cmeg1 sorry to drag you in once more, do you do eb & flow stuff? Are there any cool things you see happening when you go from wet cuttings to a drier environments with rockwool?

 

[Cajunrider]

Uh oh. Bringing science to a soil debate. What a concept!

But but but Monsieur Leatherback already said it is too small a sample so it was but a soiled attempt.