Wiltonii - My First Creepy Trunk Hunt 🌲

[El Triminator]

Fellow enthusiasts,

My first post on this site as a newbie [yesterday] was about a weird nana I found at big box that has long skinny stems and was grown up a stake. I wired the two big trunks up, had plans for a cascade, but sort of trimmed it a bit and am going to let it grow and heal. There's so much going on I'm just going to think about it for a while and see what comes to mind.

On my quest for more stock (I can see where this is going already ), I forced myself to look past the nana selection, which seems like such a great specimen, but I'm already thirsting for something a bit more funky...the nursery by me unfortunately doesn't have larger stock, so I inevitability began searching for the good trunks - I'm sure they either knew what was up or thought I was poisoning their plants. I came across two Wiltonii, and wanted to ask your opinion on this trunk. Unlike the leggy nana, which will be something one day, this seems far more ready and manageable. I have a root pick/rake coming today (weird the things you get excited about) and will see if there's more to it down below, though it doesn't seem like it on first glance.

What I've found to work so far is getting a small piece of wire and sort of tying off or sectioning the pieces I want to be pads to make decisions simple. Do you do this? Another huge question I have is about trunks. Being the first two I have found with not basic skinny trunks, but some quality girth and sort of movement potential, how do I continue to make the trunks get beefy and mature?



Love the support, hope to hear back

Chris

 

[El Triminator]

Here's the second Wiltonii with a very rough quick trim. I think these two will make unique bonsai and have quality trunks! Success!

 

[Tieball]

I like the creepy look of both trees. Lots of potential to keep the creepy impressions continued as they grow. Continuing and improving the creepy will require some unconventional pruning and carving. Nice find!

 

[Eckhoffw]

Fellow enthusiasts,

My first post on this site as a newbie [yesterday] was about a weird nana I found at big box that has long skinny stems and was grown up a stake. I wired the two big trunks up, had plans for a cascade, but sort of trimmed it a bit and am going to let it grow and heal. There's so much going on I'm just going to think about it for a while and see what comes to mind.

On my quest for more stock (I can see where this is going already ), I forced myself to look past the nana selection, which seems like such a great specimen, but I'm already thirsting for something a bit more funky...the nursery by me unfortunately doesn't have larger stock, so I inevitability began searching for the good trunks - I'm sure they either knew what was up or thought I was poisoning their plants. I came across two Wiltonii, and wanted to ask your opinion on this trunk. Unlike the leggy nana, which will be something one day, this seems far more ready and manageable. I have a root pick/rake coming today (weird the things you get excited about) and will see if there's more to it down below, though it doesn't seem like it on first glance.

What I've found to work so far is getting a small piece of wire and sort of tying off or sectioning the pieces I want to be pads to make decisions simple. Do you do this? Another huge question I have is about trunks. Being the first two I have found with not basic skinny trunks, but some quality girth and sort of movement potential, how do I continue to make the trunks get beefy and mature?

View attachment 409639View attachment 409637View attachment 409638

Love the support, hope to hear back

Chris

Looks promising. Good luck.

 

[El Triminator]

I like the creepy look of both trees. Lots of potential to keep the creepy impressions continued as they grow. Continuing and improving the creepy will require some unconventional pruning and carving. Nice find!

I agree, very sleepy hollow...trying to not get I to the habit of overpruning and letting everything take shape or at least observe it for a while before making irrational decisions. I have a lot to learn

 

[El Triminator]

Looks promising. Good luck.

Thanks. Watching some really good tutorials before I get too far.

 

[Shibui]

how do I continue to make the trunks get beefy and mature?

2 ways to get thicker trunks:
1. Time (and usually lots of it)
2. Growth - the more growth above a point on the trunk the thicker the trunk will get. Pruning definitely slows trunk thickening.

Your trees already have good sized trunks for the height of the trees. There may not be the same need for increased thickening. I do not think the exaggerated trunk thickness and taper we see now in deciduous trees is needed for juniper bonsai.
Sometimes shari can be used to create the illusion of better taper or thicker trunk low down.

 

[sorce]

Put the damn rake away, go rake the lawn!

I like that you got the big trunk part down, but it can also be quite decieving with these, since they usually come with them stovepipes, makes it kinda hard to not skin it back to looking like a turd with a cigar stuck in it.

I love these, one of my favorites since they grow so well here.

Don't be afraid to chop them stovepipes back to right proportions, a wee shorter than the fat trunk segment.

I'd use the growth after that cut to determine which stovepipes to remove, if any.

Nice.

Sorce

 

[El Triminator]

2 ways to get thicker trunks:
1. Time (and usually lots of it)
2. Growth - the more growth above a point on the trunk the thicker the trunk will get. Pruning definitely slows trunk thickening.

Your trees already have good sized trunks for the height of the trees. There may not be the same need for increased thickening. I do not think the exaggerated trunk thickness and taper we see now in deciduous trees is needed for juniper bonsai.
Sometimes shari can be used to create the illusion of better taper or thicker trunk low down.

I agree with you. I thing the thickness here so young should continue proportionately, too. I'm learning quickly the importance of time and patience. I butchered my first nana to look like a "perfect" tree, which I assume many do, but there was so much on it I wish I had been more liberal. Podcasts and videos of professionals with advanced mindsets are helping me. One of the greatest guys I listened to talked about one of his clients who sought out deciduous trees that had either been neglected or damaged and would work to bring them back. An important note was creating what our eyes liked, not always how the books look. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reach out with kind inputs.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[El Triminator]

Put the damn rake away, go rake the lawn!

I like that you got the big trunk part down, but it can also be quite decieving with these, since they usually come with them stovepipes, makes it kinda hard to not skin it back to looking like a turd with a cigar stuck in it.

I love these, one of my favorites since they grow so well here.

Don't be afraid to chop them stovepipes back to right proportions, a wee shorter than the fat trunk segment.

I'd use the growth after that cut to determine which stovepipes to remove, if any.

Nice.

Sorce

Well, we have turf as I rent due to location changes every few years, haha. I must be humbly novice, but can you explain the stovepipe concept a little more? Your recommendation is to cut back hard-ish and see what next year's new growth drives in terms of creation? Cheers!

Chris

 

[Tieball]

The imperfections on these trees make them look wildly interesting. I'd avoid all the efforts to try and make the trees conform to some sort of ruled perfection.

 

[sorce]

Well, we have turf as I rent due to location changes every few years, haha. I must be humbly novice, but can you explain the stovepipe concept a little more? Your recommendation is to cut back hard-ish and see what next year's new growth drives in terms of creation? Cheers!

Chris

You kinda have to understand the first mistake folks tend to make, which is wanting to use the entire tree as present. This is near a one in a million chance. Here is the one.

DWARF COLORADO BLUE SPRUCE FIND!

Last week Diane stopped by a nearby garden center and discovered a couple of interesting trees, a Waldbrunn Colorado Blue Spruce and a Sharps Pygmy Japanese Maple. She sent me a few photos and the next day we went together to pick up the two trees. She has a good trained eye. This cultivar of...

www.bonsainut.com

The thing is, this "want" can manifest itself safely on most beginner trees, because merely pruning to triangle shapes, keeping low branches thick and top thin, can grow in a reasonable amount of taper.

This is where your "pickle" comes in, the deceit of the fat trunk. With these, if this "want" to use the entire tree as present is allowed to take hold...

One, you have a great trunk which is octopussing out subtrunks which only happens in nature, with these Wiltonii's, so keeping them as such will always look more like a shrub in a pot, than an old tree in nature.

Two, you kill the octopussing, but keep one long subtrunk which is too long, and never really escapes this, "cigar in a turd clump look". Or maybe, a piece of rebar in a brick look. (Not enough phone space to make a drawing)

This can be said to be the Second mistake beginners tend to make. Which can basically be entered into this general category of, "fear of chopping back far enough".

Important to note that even by making these mistakes, you're not really losing any design options, but you are wasting time.
I've had the pleasure recently of looking back on some threads and seeing the 6 years wasted here, 3 here, 4 here, it sucks!

Time is Everything And Nothing.

I think the anti-mistake, called such because it isn't "the correct way", just a force against these mistakes, is....

Being able to create a tree in your mind, with growth that is not yet present.

The obvious problem there is, you need a good few years to trust your hort care enough to get the growth and know it will work. There's no less than 6 things that work against getting to the point of trusting your hort care, not the least of which is raking because we are happy to have a tool!
But things like being scissors happy, repots, pests, soil, watering, wintering, fertilizer, timing, etc...all have a right sneaky ass way of hiding each other from being identified as the culprit of a problem. Add onto that what is internet forum communication, which is, I believe more and more terrible everyday we use it without addressing it's absolute destruction of our society, and those problems get lost under that much more BS.

Obviously I believe long drawn out conversations in great detail works against that.

Anyway.

If you could take more pictures of what those next trunks are doing, you could probably figure the best one to reduce down to now. (Figure now not action now)

If they are all "even", not really one better than another as far as movement and next branch distance, etc, just cutting them all back equal and letting subsequent growth aide in the decision would be best.

Each ones closeup picture is where I see the best future tree within.

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

That @sorce dude gave me a wiltonii... I learned MUCH about Junipers by “tracing his work back”... I feel like I received a FULL course in “Effectively Grown Sacrifice Juniper Branches”..

Also. Shibui pointed out the obvious.. Time, lots.. and green growth...

I remember hearing once that a rule for deciduous trees is: Every Meter of growth, equates to a Centimeter of thickening spread out BELOW the point where the growth hits the primary branch/trunk..

Soooo gotta push green to thicken.. lots of green..

Also.. Sorce knows this species well.. and his info will be spot on.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The imperfections on these trees make them look wildly interesting. I'd avoid all the efforts to try and make the trees conform to some sort of ruled perfection.

This I also agree with...

But for someone just starting their journey.. it’s important that they understand the “whys” OF the imperfection. As a beginner, one is still establishing the basic visual/spatial understanding of ocular aesthetics/balance when it comes to miniaturized trees.

 

[El Triminator]

You kinda have to understand the first mistake folks tend to make, which is wanting to use the entire tree as present. This is near a one in a million chance. Here is the one.

DWARF COLORADO BLUE SPRUCE FIND!

Last week Diane stopped by a nearby garden center and discovered a couple of interesting trees, a Waldbrunn Colorado Blue Spruce and a Sharps Pygmy Japanese Maple. She sent me a few photos and the next day we went together to pick up the two trees. She has a good trained eye. This cultivar of...

www.bonsainut.com

The thing is, this "want" can manifest itself safely on most beginner trees, because merely pruning to triangle shapes, keeping low branches thick and top thin, can grow in a reasonable amount of taper.

This is where your "pickle" comes in, the deceit of the fat trunk. With these, if this "want" to use the entire tree as present is allowed to take hold...

One, you have a great trunk which is octopussing out subtrunks which only happens in nature, with these Wiltonii's, so keeping them as such will always look more like a shrub in a pot, than an old tree in nature.

Two, you kill the octopussing, but keep one long subtrunk which is too long, and never really escapes this, "cigar in a turd clump look". Or maybe, a piece of rebar in a brick look. (Not enough phone space to make a drawing)

This can be said to be the Second mistake beginners tend to make. Which can basically be entered into this general category of, "fear of chopping back far enough".

Important to note that even by making these mistakes, you're not really losing any design options, but you are wasting time.
I've had the pleasure recently of looking back on some threads and seeing the 6 years wasted here, 3 here, 4 here, it sucks!

Time is Everything And Nothing.

I think the anti-mistake, called such because it isn't "the correct way", just a force against these mistakes, is....

Being able to create a tree in your mind, with growth that is not yet present.

The obvious problem there is, you need a good few years to trust your hort care enough to get the growth and know it will work. There's no less than 6 things that work against getting to the point of trusting your hort care, not the least of which is raking because we are happy to have a tool!
But things like being scissors happy, repots, pests, soil, watering, wintering, fertilizer, timing, etc...all have a right sneaky ass way of hiding each other from being identified as the culprit of a problem. Add onto that what is internet forum communication, which is, I believe more and more terrible everyday we use it without addressing it's absolute destruction of our society, and those problems get lost under that much more BS.

Obviously I believe long drawn out conversations in great detail works against that.

Anyway.

If you could take more pictures of what those next trunks are doing, you could probably figure the best one to reduce down to now. (Figure now not action now)

If they are all "even", not really one better than another as far as movement and next branch distance, etc, just cutting them all back equal and letting subsequent growth aide in the decision would be best.

Each ones closeup picture is where I see the best future tree within.

Sorce

What great insight, I do appreciate your taking time to respond in detail. I will read this a couple times over to digest and keep these practices forefront. I picked up a spartan today and will apply these principles. There are in fact so many factors to keeping plants alive. I have roughly 50 houseplants and about the same in cacti, most mature adult specimens, a couple true saguaros, etc., and it's taken tears to feel confident in their complete care. For me, bonsai seems a natural next step and what really excites me is the artistic and time investment aspect. There is so much to learn and so much to keep busy with, rather than the cacti and houseplant repot, water, repeat. Now I know that is a lot of bonsai, but I don't have to imagine or ponder where my 30 y.o. saguaro will be in 30 years...it'll be taller, haha. I'm excited for a lifetime of learning, failure failure, and hopefully learning along the way. And the smell of cut conifer puts a smile on my face so far. I have orders to move to Maryland next year and the availability of deciduous and all those things that aren't prevalent in San Diego has me eagerly waiting...

Here's a shot of the Spartan I got today. While it may be another nursery stock, simply hunting for these things is exciting in and of itself. Applying basic concepts like finding the front, and the things you mentioned, should keep me busy



Cheers,
Chris

 

[El Triminator]

The imperfections on these trees make them look wildly interesting. I'd avoid all the efforts to try and make the trees conform to some sort of ruled perfection.

That's the plan

 

[El Triminator]

That @sorce dude gave me a wiltonii... I learned MUCH about Junipers by “tracing his work back”... I feel like I received a FULL course in “Effectively Grown Sacrifice Juniper Branches”..

Also. Shibui pointed out the obvious.. Time, lots.. and green growth...

I remember hearing once that a rule for deciduous trees is: Every Meter of growth, equates to a Centimeter of thickening spread out BELOW the point where the growth hits the primary branch/trunk..

Soooo gotta push green to thicken.. lots of green..

Also.. Sorce knows this species well.. and his info will be spot

So for a new nursery stock, pushing green...is it just best to trim dead stuff, and then let the plant mature without doing much work? Or making big decisions like initial shaping and letting it grow out bigtime...this goes along woth Sorce's concept, just seeing how you all approach.

Chris

 

[El Triminator]

You kinda have to understand the first mistake folks tend to make, which is wanting to use the entire tree as present. This is near a one in a million chance. Here is the one.

DWARF COLORADO BLUE SPRUCE FIND!

Last week Diane stopped by a nearby garden center and discovered a couple of interesting trees, a Waldbrunn Colorado Blue Spruce and a Sharps Pygmy Japanese Maple. She sent me a few photos and the next day we went together to pick up the two trees. She has a good trained eye. This cultivar of...

www.bonsainut.com

The thing is, this "want" can manifest itself safely on most beginner trees, because merely pruning to triangle shapes, keeping low branches thick and top thin, can grow in a reasonable amount of taper.

This is where your "pickle" comes in, the deceit of the fat trunk. With these, if this "want" to use the entire tree as present is allowed to take hold...

One, you have a great trunk which is octopussing out subtrunks which only happens in nature, with these Wiltonii's, so keeping them as such will always look more like a shrub in a pot, than an old tree in nature.

Two, you kill the octopussing, but keep one long subtrunk which is too long, and never really escapes this, "cigar in a turd clump look". Or maybe, a piece of rebar in a brick look. (Not enough phone space to make a drawing)

This can be said to be the Second mistake beginners tend to make. Which can basically be entered into this general category of, "fear of chopping back far enough".

Important to note that even by making these mistakes, you're not really losing any design options, but you are wasting time.
I've had the pleasure recently of looking back on some threads and seeing the 6 years wasted here, 3 here, 4 here, it sucks!

Time is Everything And Nothing.

I think the anti-mistake, called such because it isn't "the correct way", just a force against these mistakes, is....

Being able to create a tree in your mind, with growth that is not yet present.

The obvious problem there is, you need a good few years to trust your hort care enough to get the growth and know it will work. There's no less than 6 things that work against getting to the point of trusting your hort care, not the least of which is raking because we are happy to have a tool!
But things like being scissors happy, repots, pests, soil, watering, wintering, fertilizer, timing, etc...all have a right sneaky ass way of hiding each other from being identified as the culprit of a problem. Add onto that what is internet forum communication, which is, I believe more and more terrible everyday we use it without addressing it's absolute destruction of our society, and those problems get lost under that much more BS.

Obviously I believe long drawn out conversations in great detail works against that.

Anyway.

If you could take more pictures of what those next trunks are doing, you could probably figure the best one to reduce down to now. (Figure now not action now)

If they are all "even", not really one better than another as far as movement and next branch distance, etc, just cutting them all back equal and letting subsequent growth aide in the decision would be best.

Each ones closeup picture is where I see the best future tree within.

Sorce

I'm still digesting this...so you're saying all the little cool trunks coming off the main one in the wiltonii might be best cut off...does that mean they won't grow back, as well as they are deceptively useless? Would it be best to cut them down to the trunk, or leave a little in case of them dying back...the guy from Heron's made it pretty clear that people over-jin, so I'm not going to attempt that at this point...I really thought that octopusing and wild root structure was a desired trait...who knew...but I'm just not sure if the intention to cut it back is merely to see what spawns from it, to get rid of it, or a combination of both!

Chris

 

[El Triminator]

This was a bit unexpected on the first wiltonii I started trimming the trunk on...cool?

 

[sorce]

. Sorce knows this species well.

Truth be told....

Most of what I know about these is from studying old ones. There is something about juniper growth that I just can't "see" well enough to understand it.

As far as I've really gotten with these is understanding you can cut a lot off and it will grow back, but because I can't "see" growth to read it....I have about a 2% confidence with them.

I reckon the only thing I am 100% confident on is repotting, full foliage and in summer.

Sorce