Growing Bonsai Study Groups

[JEads]

I am interested in teaching some regional study groups with a focus on growing and developing bonsai from scratch. I want to present my proposal here and hope to get your thoughts and feedback.

Here are my thoughts:

I think that training the hobby bonsai community to grow quality bonsai is one of the best ways to increase our bonsai quantity and quality, and will set future generations up to have good material to work with.

To that end, I would like to teach 3-4 study groups around the country. We would meet 3-4 times a year for a weekend to build, grow and develop trees with the goal towards regional and national shows.

Ideal students are people interested in learning growing techniques on young, undeveloped materials. Experience is not necessary, but commitment is expected. I hope to inspire people to commit to the group for many years to see the trees grow and develop over the long haul. We will learn on some older, collected materials, but the goal would be to develop trees through seeds, seedlings, cuttings and air layers. Students also ideally have space to grow a few hundred small trees. I believe that knowledge is best learned through repetition, so we will develop trees in groups.

I would like to keep the classes small (5-6 students). This will allow me to give more attention to each student. I would ask for a modest daily rate for my time and expenses.

I am looking for:

1. Your thoughts and ideas about the feasibility of this proposal.
2. Hosts. These people would be willing to have the classes in their space 3-4 times a year and help me with local logistics.
3. Students. If you are unable to host but are interested in attending, let's talk.

Thank you all for your time.
John Eads
Left Coast Bonsai.

 

[andrewiles]

I love the idea. As someone who really enjoys starting from cuttings and young nursery stock a similarly minded ground that met periodically would be appealing. I suspect we could find ample folks in my neck of the woods (Seattle) for this, esp. since overall costs would be lower than any trips across the country. We also have existing study groups with reserved meeting spaces that could be used. Feel free to PM me and I'll do what I can to help.

 

[JEads]

I love the idea. As someone who really enjoys starting from cuttings and young nursery stock a similarly minded ground that met periodically would be appealing. I suspect we could find ample folks in my neck of the woods (Seattle) for this, esp. since overall costs would be lower than any trips across the country. We also have existing study groups with reserved meeting spaces that could be used. Feel free to PM me and I'll do what I can to help.

I think the seattle area might be a perfect location due to its proximity to me and great because it is a similar climate.
I have been meaning to reach out to @aarinpackard about teaching some classes at the Pacific Bonsai Museum. I think the best growing techniques are learned while looking and studying actual old trees.
I already have a winter class for my home study group on December 9-10, 2023. I am ready to move forward once we have a core group of people and a space.
Lets stay in touch!
John

 

[JEads]

I am interested in teaching some regional study groups with a focus on growing and developing bonsai from scratch. I want to present my proposal here and hope to get your thoughts and feedback.

To clarify, I want to setup study groups in different regions of the US. I would like to have 4 groups in different parts of the country that give more people access without having to travel as far.

 

[hemmy]

Dibs on the Midwest! If the interest is there for KC, I’d be in. Although my setup for the foreseeable future is more like room for dozens of grow out trees, not hundreds.

One challenge will be timing of work across the country. I’m still learning my new climate. But planning far ahead on a date for that repotting window is challenging.

Once you hammer out more details and rates, it would be worth getting into the various club newsletters.

 

[JEads]

Dibs on the Midwest! If the interest is there for KC, I’d be in. Although my setup for the foreseeable future is more like room for dozens of grow out trees, not hundreds.

One challenge will be timing of work across the country. I’m still learning my new climate. But planning far ahead on a date for that repotting window is challenging.

Once you hammer out more details and rates, it would be worth getting into the various club newsletters.

Great! I don't think having limited space will be a deal breaker to be part of the "club", I just think that bending 20 black pines in different ways and seeing how they develop will be more insightful than bending one.
I do plan on getting into some newsletters in the places where I can get a few responses.
So, spread the work among your peers and bonsai friends and I will keep you updated.

John

 

[bwaynef]

If you come to the southeast, let me know. I don't know about hosting right now, but I'm interested.

 

[Gabler]

I've been interested in growing pre-bonsai from scratch for a while now, and I've been doing my best to figure it out using books and YouTube videos. This is exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for.

 

[JEads]

If you come to the southeast, let me know. I don't know about hosting right now, but I'm interested.

Are you part of a club or group that I could reach out to? Thanks for your interest

 

[JEads]

I've been interested in growing pre-bonsai from scratch for a while now, and I've been doing my best to figure it out using books and YouTube videos. This is exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for.

Great. Hopefully we can find something in that area. I have family in Philly, so have other reasons to travel to that area. I assume there a few clubs within a few hours, so hopefully we can find someone that can host. Is Philly too far to drive for you for a quarterly class?

 

[Gabler]

Great. Hopefully we can find something in that area. I have family in Philly, so have other reasons to travel to that area. I assume there a few clubs within a few hours, so hopefully we can find someone that can host. Is Philly too far to drive for you for a quarterly class?

I'm about forty minutes from downtown Philadelphia, so no. That's not too far at all. Philadelphia has the advantage of being halfway between New York and Washington DC, and not too far from either for a day trip or a weekend trip.

It's also not far from Longwood Gardens, where the Brandywine Bonsai Society occasionally hosts workshops. I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to reserve a space there, but it could be a great location to host a workshop. I'm not sure if it's something anyone can do, or if it's a favor to the local bonsai club, but I know it can be done. I'm going there this weekend for a kusamono workshop.

 

[Apex37]

This is an awesome idea!
Definitely very interested in something like this, as it’s a long term goal to do something similar to what you’re doing, John. Currently, I don’t have the means at our house, but we’re looking to move to TN/NC area and where we are looking we’ll have a lot more space for something like this.

Any idea of when you were planning on setting all this up for?

Complete side note, but miss ya on the Bonsai Wire podcast. Hope you’ve been doing well!

 

[JEads]

I'm about forty minutes from downtown Philadelphia, so no. That's not too far at all. Philadelphia has the advantage of being halfway between New York and Washington DC, and not too far from either for a day trip or a weekend trip.

It's also not far from Longwood Gardens, where the Brandywine Bonsai Society occasionally hosts workshops. I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to reserve a space there, but it could be a great location to host a workshop. I'm not sure if it's something anyone can do, or if it's a favor to the local bonsai club, but I know it can be done. I'm going there this weekend for a kusamono workshop.

Great. I will start looking somewhere around there for a space. I also saw that the national arboritum is not out of reach for an occasional trip to get some inspiration.

This is an awesome idea!
Definitely very interested in something like this, as it’s a long term goal to do something similar to what you’re doing, John. Currently, I don’t have the means at our house, but we’re looking to move to TN/NC area and where we are looking we’ll have a lot more space for something like this.

Any idea of when you were planning on setting all this up for?

Complete side note, but miss ya on the Bonsai Wire podcast. Hope you’ve been doing well!

I am still looking for places to do these. I have family ties in Texas and Philly, so those would be easy. Makes sense to do something on the East Coast, Midwest, South and then a few on the west coast, because they are easy for me to travel to.
I think it will be imperative to have a good collection to study in real time as we work through some of the topics. So either a private collection that we could work at, or a public collection with a workshop space.
Each of the 4-6 groups only needs 5 or 6 committed members, so it should not be too hard to find the space and people that are excited about the topics.

 

[JEads]

Complete side note, but miss ya on the Bonsai Wire podcast. Hope you’ve been doing well!

Thanks. I have a list of topics that I want to do podcasts on. This "Grower Study Group" is the main one. I just need to nail down some time and another host to bounce the ideas off of.
It was a rough summer at the farm with the major irrigation pond reconstruction and all of impacts of that , but the fall rains have started and it is time to drill down on fall and winter work.

 

[Gabler]

I also saw that the national arboritum is not out of reach for an occasional trip to get some inspiration.

I like to head down there from time to time. If it were closer, I'd go every day, since it's free.

 

[JackHammer]

Is this really feasible from a business standpoint?

So rough numbers - 7 students, times 4 sessions = 28. So even at $200 a session (which is pretty expensive), you would get $5,600 net, for each cohort. If that is for only 4 days of work, I'd say not too bad as 1k a day gives over head for travel and lodging. However, how many cohorts would you need for this to be fruitful?
Let's say that about 15 is the max you can handle - so 15 x 5,600 = 84k net. You would still have travel and lodging which I think would eat up about 1/4 to 1/2 of your income. However, pretty much everything you would do would be a business expense so you could claim that against your taxes (highly recommended).

I guess there is some potential, but you would be on the road constantly. I think bonsai teachers try to do this and end up burning themselves out because it is a tremendous amount of work and even though it seems like a good amount of money coming in, you have to put in a lot to get there. Also, you would have to sell and market your concept which would be a considerable amount of work.

I believe this is why Bjorn and Ryan McNeil(Is that the mirai guys name?) have nurseries that bring the people to them. If you are willing to spend 800 bucks on training, you are probably willing to make a side trip if you are visiting in the region, or sign up for their web series, etc..

 

[Gabler]

Is this really feasible from a business standpoint?

So rough numbers - 7 students, times 4 sessions = 28. So even at $200 a session (which is pretty expensive), you would get $5,600 net, for each cohort. If that is for only 4 days of work, I'd say not too bad as 1k a day gives over head for travel and lodging. However, how many cohorts would you need for this to be fruitful?
Let's say that about 15 is the max you can handle - so 15 x 5,600 = 84k net. You would still have travel and lodging which I think would eat up about 1/4 to 1/2 of your income. However, pretty much everything you would do would be a business expense so you could claim that against your taxes (highly recommended).

I guess there is some potential, but you would be on the road constantly. I think bonsai teachers try to do this and end up burning themselves out because it is a tremendous amount of work and even though it seems like a good amount of money coming in, you have to put in a lot to get there. Also, you would have to sell and market your concept which would be a considerable amount of work.

I believe this is why Bjorn and Ryan McNeil(Is that the mirai guys name?) have nurseries that bring the people to them. If you are willing to spend 800 bucks on training, you are probably willing to make a side trip if you are visiting in the region, or sign up for their web series, etc..

Shush! Don't tell him that!

Jokes aside, if this is intended to turn a profit, it might be necessary to enroll larger cohorts or find one or more clubs to foot the bill for the benefit of members. Clubs that belong to MABS might be interested in facilitating the Philly workshop(s).

 

[shohin_branches]

For those of us in urban environments I wouldn't be able to do hundreds, but I develop in raised beds and anderson flats or grow boxes. I am planning on starting a few seeds a year to develop and am a compulsive propagator of cuttings. Looks like I will need to build more benches and raised beds. In Milwaukee we have a pretty large club so you probably could fill a pretty large group or do multiple classes. Visiting each person's grow beds could be a challenge though.

 

[JEads]

Is this really feasible from a business standpoint?

So rough numbers - 7 students, times 4 sessions = 28. So even at $200 a session (which is pretty expensive), you would get $5,600 net, for each cohort. If that is for only 4 days of work, I'd say not too bad as 1k a day gives over head for travel and lodging. However, how many cohorts would you need for this to be fruitful?
Let's say that about 15 is the max you can handle - so 15 x 5,600 = 84k net. You would still have travel and lodging which I think would eat up about 1/4 to 1/2 of your income. However, pretty much everything you would do would be a business expense so you could claim that against your taxes (highly recommended).

I guess there is some potential, but you would be on the road constantly. I think bonsai teachers try to do this and end up burning themselves out because it is a tremendous amount of work and even though it seems like a good amount of money coming in, you have to put in a lot to get there. Also, you would have to sell and market your concept which would be a considerable amount of work.

I believe this is why Bjorn and Ryan McNeil(Is that the mirai guys name?) have nurseries that bring the people to them. If you are willing to spend 800 bucks on training, you are probably willing to make a side trip if you are visiting in the region, or sign up for their web series, etc..

I appreciate your concern and I have crunched the raw numbers and think it could work for me. Here are my thoughts:
I plan on having 5 groups. One at my farm, one in Seattle. Those are both cheap or free to travel to. The other three are will include travel and other expenses. The groups will meet 3x year, so I am making 9-4 to 5 day trips per year. So 53 days away from my farm per year. That is a chunk and will bite into my production around here, but I think the net gain might be worth it.
I have 2 acres of pre bonsai in motion that will be the bread and butter and the classes will help get my name into the community.

I might be wrong, but $200/day /student is well below the going rate for professional classes, especially when you consider your own travel and expenses and time away as a student. If a trip to a professional yard cost $275/ day for lessons plus $500 for flights plus $100 per night for board, I think it could be better deal to have professionals travel more. A trip to Portland for a 2 day class would cost at least $1200 per student.
Assuming that the cohort students are within driving distance, the cohort classes could end up being less than half that cost and less lost travel time.
I don't want to presume that I am equivalent to Bjorn or Ryan, but I think I have a passion and experience growing that is not shared by many other professionals.

 

[JEads]

Shush! Don't tell him that!

Jokes aside, if this is intended to turn a profit, it might be necessary to enroll larger cohorts or find one or more clubs to foot the bill for the benefit of members. Clubs that belong to MABS might be interested in facilitating the Philly workshop(s).

I think I would book private side work and club meetings with larger workshops to offset the travel expenses.